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Employee Discipline - A critical process?

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
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#11
Interesting question. My off-the-cuff opinion is that ISO 9001 certainly allows for discipline, but I don't think it needs to be part of the QMS. Could it be? I suppose so, but it seems to me this might "throw" an auditor and open up a can o' worms, so for simplicity's sake I'd keep it as a separate HR policy. I suppose I could be convinced otherwise, though.
 
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Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
#12
RCBeyette said:
Personally, I do not believe that discipline needs to be considered a critical process. It needs to be formalized and standardized so that no one can cry out later to unfair and unjust treatment.

But discipline does not help get the product made, does not contribute to ensuring we meet requirements and, if anything, instills an environment of fear and distrust instead of teamwork.
I'd have to respectfully disagree with the last part of this quote, RC. Discipline over-used, unfairly used, or inappropriately used will certainly be counterproductive, but IMO w/o any discipline you will soon have serious problems as well. Therefore, IMO the right amount of discipline does indeed "help get the product made" and "contribute to ensuring we meet requirements". IMO.

Now, the first part of your quote made me think of a related question. (If this question throws the thread too far off, which it might, Mods by all means feel free to move it as you see fit. :bigwave: )

I'm wondering how most companies handle their disciplinary policies, and HR policies in general. Do you have lawyers help write "big honkin' binders" filled with complex, legal-eagle type HR policies? Are there few or no formal HR policies? Are the policies fair and user-friendly? Are they reviewed for appropriateness every so-often? Are the employees given easy access to the policies and training on them? Has your company had legal problems associated with HR policies?

I always thought that in starting a small company one of the biggest early headaches would be the HR policies. You can't afford to spend too much money on lawyer fees, you probably don't wanna make it too complex or adversarial, but you also fear possible litigation if you do too little -- especially in today's society.

Hey -- I'll bet the perfect answer is to have ISO develop HR systems requirements! :eek: :rolleyes:
 
C

Craig H.

#13
Markasmith said:
. I am trying to show them this is not the right mentality to have at the risk (small as it is) that they may at will me. :rolleyes:
Does anyone else have any thoughts on this issue ( if discipline processes should be a critical process )?

Mark
Mark, I would be worried about what could be seen as inconsistent application of the "fire at will" "process".

Although I have not been a party to litigation involving such issues (or others, for that matter) I have heard that judges can, and do, write HR policies where none exist, based on the past actions of the company. That is one reason for having an employee manual.

To me, the risk assumed by not having a manual is greater than the risk, and bother, of having one. The same is true for discipline policy, for the same reasons. I, too, live and work in a "right to work", "fire at will" (who is this Will, guy, anyhow) state, but the thought of the possible ramifications of the interpretation of the law still bother me, FWIW. Better to have a policy in place and take the risk of getting popped for not following it to the letter than not having a policy in place and having an attorney make it whatever they want to. To me, its kind of like the difference between a major and minor nonconformance during an ISO 9000 audit - has something been addressed and the execution flawed, or has it been ignored? Of course, this is all JMHO.

Maybe there is an unfortunate one amongst us that has been through this type of employment litigation? Can someone provide first-hand experience?
 

Caster

An Early Cover
Trusted Information Resource
#14
Craig H. said:
Mark, I would be worried about what could be seen as inconsistent application of the "fire at will" "process".

Maybe there is an unfortunate one amongst us that has been through this type of employment litigation? Can someone provide first-hand experience?
In Canada it comes down to a months pay per year of service for wrongful dismissal. My dad owned a small business and learned this the hard way with a 12 year employee...it hurts the pocketbook to get mad.

A small employer only has to follow "3 strikes yer out" to avoid all this though. One verbal, one written warning, then bye-bye for cause.

However, anyone with a brain improves after the first warning. Maybe that's the desired result anyway.

I expect things are much different in the USA.

Caster
 

Ron Rompen

Trusted Information Resource
#15
Just to take the devils advocate position for a moment....


Who (if anyone) is disciplining the people who WROTE the work instructions that can't be followed?

We've all seen them....multiple pages, notations in tiny little type, cryptic references to ISO, QS or TS standards....no WONDER the operators can't follow them.

I just finished rewriting our Quality Work Instruction for PPAP submissions; a 4 page document (in 10 pt type) was reduced to 2/3 of a page, in 14 point. I had written the original, and even -=I=- didn't understand what I had required initially. Yet it passed our QS audit since day 1. It met the requirements, but I doubt that I could prove any of us actually followed it.

In brief, if it doesn't make sense to an operator, then he/she won't do it, no matter what the carrot or stick.

Comment????

:frust:
 
Last edited:
#16
Ron Rompen said:
We've all seen them....multiple pages, notations in tiny little type, cryptic references to ISO, QS or TS standards....no WONDER the operators can't follow them.
Yes, Ron. Point well taken. I have created such monsters too, back when I didn't know better. Today, at least I try to be brief and to the point, and the results are a lot better. I'm still learning, though, and hope to continue to do so.

/Claes
 

RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#17
Mike S. said:
I'd have to respectfully disagree with the last part of this quote, RC. Discipline over-used, unfairly used, or inappropriately used will certainly be counterproductive, but IMO w/o any discipline you will soon have serious problems as well. Therefore, IMO the right amount of discipline does indeed "help get the product made" and "contribute to ensuring we meet requirements". IMO.
I guess I was thinking of a direct relationship between discipline and product quality. I don't perceive one. What I do see is a relationship between self-discipline and product quality. I am trained to follow the work instructions so I shall follow the work instructions.

Unfortunately, yes, there are some bad apples out there and formal discipline is required to either get them with the programme or out of the team, which can ultimately lead to product conformance, but I still can not see this being deemed a critical process.

Mike S. said:
I'm wondering how most companies handle their disciplinary policies, and HR policies in general. Do you have lawyers help write "big honkin' binders" filled with complex, legal-eagle type HR policies? Are there few or no formal HR policies? Are the policies fair and user-friendly? Are they reviewed for appropriateness every so-often? Are the employees given easy access to the policies and training on them? Has your company had legal problems associated with HR policies?
We have procedures in our system as well as the collective agreement. All employees have access to all documentation as well as initial training and, on what we consider to be key concepts, refresher training. If there are any issues with a member of the union not following the documented process (or any process for that matter), there are formalized steps to be followed.

Mike S. said:
Hey -- I'll bet the perfect answer is to have ISO develop HR systems requirements!
Yikes! :eek: I don't think I'd want to audit to that group of requirements!!! :D

Ron Rompen said:
We've all seen them....multiple pages, notations in tiny little type, cryptic references to ISO, QS or TS standards....no WONDER the operators can't follow them.
It's an evolutionary thing that I think all of us have gone through. Our initial exposure to ISO was document!document!document! Some of us could probably have given Tolstoy a run for his rubles! :) With time and experience and feedback from the actual users of the documents, our documentation practice has evolved to create more streamlined, user-friendly documents. Document authors are learning what their Customers, the users of the documents, want and need and are adapating their style to meet those requirements.
 
V

Vincnet

#18
IMHO ISO should never address discipline, it should address quality of the product through training and motivation of the employes to do well, but not discipline, as discipline refers to legal issues regarding the work environment.
As the laws are different from one country to an other ISO can't adress this issue.

In France, every company, no matter ISO certified or not, is required by law to have what is called "un réglement intérieur" it would translate as Company Internal Rules n english. This document defines all the rules governing the life within the company, part of it being the discipline procedures.

Just to conclude: I do not believe in the value of negative reinforcement on the quality of work done by people. Positive incentives are of much greatter value and efficiency as they promote will to improve and do better rather than attempt to do just enough, and this is quality oriented

As a general rule you are more motivated if you know that doing well will get you a cuddle :bighug: than if you know that doing bad will get you :whip: on the :ca: . this rule being wrong for some people but it's not everyone who wear tight black leather gears at work, even in France :eek:

V
 

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
#19
Ron -- Good point that requirements should be sensible or we who create them are doing everyone a disservice. However, sometimes the best of procedures won't "make sense" to that rare operator who wants to be a maverick.

Vincnet -- Agreed, positive reinforcement is the ideal and should work in the vast majority of cases (i.e. 98%??) . But in my experience in the "real" work world (20-couple years) I have come across those few problem people often enough to know that discipline is required for some of these folks, period. I don't own any black leather outfits, either! :D In the end, for these problem folks, I find discipline can help end the problem one way or the other: Either they use-up their "strikes" and are tossed out of the company or they finally "get it" and start behaving.

Two employees from my past that I had to discipline frequently and who were both verrrrrry close to finally being terminated finally got their stuff together and became good employees. Both of them wrote me very nice letters when I left the company eventually, both telling me I was one of the best bosses they ever had and thanking me for my help! One of them still writes me often to this day and credits me with helping to turn his life around, the other came to work for me at another company a few years later!

But I have also had people who just couldn't or wouldn't "get it". The procedure wasn't the problem, the person was. Buy my personal motto is that I have never fired anyone, they've fired themselves by knowing what the penalty was in advance and violating it anyway on multiple occasions -- all I do is process the paperwork.
 
C

Craig H.

#20
Ok, as I sometimes do I would like to offer up something for everyone to shoot at, and it is even on topic (I think).

Say that I am in the process of undergoing a third party audit to the ISO 9001 standard. The auditor asks how our people know what to do. I show him our stacks of procedures. Next, the auditor asks what we do if the procedures are not followed. I show him where that has happened in the past, along with the coresponding training records. The auditor looks at the records and finds that Bubba has been retrained 5 times in the last six months on the proper operation of a broom (or other production implement) and has caused another nonconformance just last week.

We have no provision in our QMS or our Employee manual for handling this situation.

The auditor asks "It appears that in this case your corrective action is not working."

If you are the auditor, how do you handle this situation, assuming that the use of the broom in this situation has a direct impact on product quality and other employees are managing the operation of said implement just fine?
 
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