Engineering Consultancy - Clause 7.5.5 (Preservation) and 7.6 Equipments

[samsung]

Thanks Jane. Definitely the drawings are preserved for a long time for legal purposes as well, I had addressed this requirement previously in control of records (records identified for control and retention), so I just specified the drawings and all related documents to a project in this clause and referred to the procedure for records control.
I added the statement on clarity and visibility of required/ drawings as advised.

I don't think clause 7.5.5 has anything to do with preserving the product (drawings) for an extended period for legal purposes as you mentioned above. This may be your internal requirement (or a legal one), but not that of a customer.

Section 7.5 deals with 'Production and service provision' wherein the standard mandates that you preserve the (conformity of) the product till it's delivered to the customers' door step. It implies that we are to extend product conformity protection beyond the plant boundaries as well. If you look at the definition of 'product', it is "product intended for, or required by, a customer, " and from that perspective what you have to preserve in compliance to your internal or legal requirement, isn't the 'product' per se but a record or history of what you produced and delivered to your customers. Products are never intended for being preserved inhouse; they are meant to be delivered and sold out.

The intent of the clause is to ensure how the products (including works in progress, raw components, finished goods, customer-owned material) are stored, secured, preserved and handled in and out of the the stockroom to prevent any damage or loss of conformity to customer requirements. That's all.

 

[harry]

I don't think clause 7.5.5 has anything to do with preserving the product (drawings) for an extended period for legal purposes as you mentioned above. ................

You are certainly right there. It applies till the finalization and conclusion of the engineering project (can be years after the physical completion). Beyond that, it comes under control of records. As design and supervising engineers carry a heavy legal responsibility, you may want to enhance your control of records methodology.

 

[JaneB]

I had addressed this requirement previously in control of records (records identified for control and retention), so I just specified the drawings and all related documents to a project in this clause and referred to the procedure for records control.
I added the statement on clarity and visibility of required/ drawings as advised.

That's fine.

 

[vanputten]

"Products are never intended for being preserved in house; they are meant to be delivered and sold out.

The intent of the clause is to ensure how the products (including works in progress, raw components, finished goods, customer-owned material) are stored, secured, preserved and handled in and out of the the stockroom to prevent any damage or loss of conformity to customer requirements. That's all."

The above information is incorrect. Preservation of Product applies internally. If you have product that sits on a shelf for years before being sold, it must be preserved. If you have internal work in progress (i.e internal processing) it must be preserved. The clause clearly is intended for preservation in house. Preservation applies to "internal processing" and to "storage." Those are internal. Control of Electrostatic Discharge is an example of internal preservation.

 

[samsung]

The above information is incorrect. Preservation of Product applies internally. If you have product that sits on a shelf for years before being sold, it must be preserved. If you have internal work in progress (i.e internal processing) it must be preserved. The clause clearly is intended for preservation in house. Preservation applies to "internal processing" and to "storage." Those are internal. Control of Electrostatic Discharge is an example of internal preservation.

This is what I did convey in my earlier post (#7) as well. The kind of preservation the OP was talking of (preservation of drawings for legal purposes) is altogether different from what the standard prescribes in 7.5.5. Preservation of records is not akin to preserving the products.

Yes, you're correct if, and only if, a product can't be sold for years, it should be preserved but what if, during these years, inspite of best possible protection, the product loses it's conformity in a natural way? like food stuff, medicines, cement and such shelf life products.

I do second to your thoughts that the the clause intends to provide protection during the 'production and internal processing' of the prodcut.

Thanks.

 

[vanputten]

Hello Samsung:

The organization's product is drawings. "...we deliver architectural, structural, electrical and mechanical design drawings."

If the drawing is provided in a paper format, then drawings are often put in those cool tubes for preservation. We don't want any folds or coffee stains on the drawing, right? If the drawing is provided in electronic or magnetic format, then there are preservation controls for that format. Disks are put in jewel cases. Ever buy a compact disk that was not preserved and full of scratches? I have not. All of the disks I have ever purchased were preserved from damage with some type of case.

The product must preserved in process and to the intended destination. I am not sure what this record conversation is. A product must be preserved independent of a time scale. I was only providing a classic example when I referred to product sitting for a year. If the product is in process for a nanosecond or a decade, it must be preserved. I see no reference in ISO 9001 to time scale constraints.

If a product only takes a second to make and a second to ship, then we don't care about preserving it? No!

7.5.5 applies to "food stuff, medicines, cement and such shelf life products." Food stuff is often preserved in coolers. A classic example. Medicine and food stuff have expiration labels to let the user know when the preservation is no longer valid. Shelf life is evidence of thought about the preservation of the product. The product can only be preserved for the determined shelf life. What happens after the shelf life expires? What happens to milk at the store after it expires? Hopefully the expired product (milk) is not offered to the customer. Food, medicine, cement or architectural drawings, 7.5.5 applies.

Where this clause is hard to understand and implement is in services. How does one preserve the product of cleanliness or health? Application of this clause to services like window washing or hospitals makes it much more difficult. If an organization's product is a drawing, the clause definitely applies.

 

[samsung]

Hi Van,

As far as application of 7.5.5 matters, we don't disagree at any point. Now, referring to your previous post, why should a product 'sit on shelf for years', either it's an obsolete stuff and thus not required by the customer or it's not suitable for sale? If it's so (as in the case of limited shelf life items), it shouldn't be 'preserved' on shelf but rather a disposition action should be thought of. It's also possible that presently there's no demand for it in the market and thus it has to be kept on hold (as long as it retains it's conformity to the customer specs.) inside the warehouse in which case it's required to be well preserved till it's delivery to the destination. No time bound constrains.

If a product only takes a second to make and a second to ship, then we don't care about preserving it? No!

Still it needs to be cared for preservation. Take the example of internet banking. You log in to your bank account for making an insurance payment through net banking which though takes only a few seconds but during this short period, the bank has to ensure preservation of your critical information during it's processing as well as till the time the 'product' is delivered to the customer or to the customer defined agency. (e.g. keeping it protected from the hackers)

Now coming to the product in question, i.e.; drawings, how could they be preserved as 'products' for years or even for a year? Drawings are normally 'produced' after receiving a customer order and once it's ready, it is most likely delivered to it's intended recipient but till the time it's delivered, it has to be preserved. However, if a (copy of the) drawing is required to be 'preserved' as a record/sample or a historical evidence for legal or other purposes, then 7.5.5 doesn't apply. It has to be preserved in accordance with the requirements of 'control of records' (4.2.4).

 

[vanputten]

Hello Samsung:

Thank you for the great reply. We totally agree. Thank you for clarifying your thoughts. Good stuff!