Enterprise Management vs. Quality Management as Processes - Differences?

[JaneB]

Hello everyone,
Sometimes I feel so confused, and the reason is - I cant find distinction between enterprise management (as process) and quality management (as process).
If quality management as process is part of management process also like Management rewiev process, IA, etc. - what is marketing process, is it management process or support process?
PR process - is it support or management process?
HR process - I think it is support process, but...
External and internal communication - is it management process or support process.

Thanks in advance for any sugestions
Juris

Juris,

Is it possible you are confusing 'process' with 'system'?

Processes are one component of a system. And a single process can, for example, be part of more than one system.

Enterprise management (as I understand and use the term) is a system. Quality management is - or should be - a system. Within either of those systems are individual processes. Depending on how the organisation is structured, the management review process might be the same process in both systems. The Quality management system is probably a sub-system (part of) within the entire enterprise management system. The EM system probably contains other systems, including systems for financial management, safety management, possibly environmental management, etc.

Hope this helps and doesn't confuse.

 

[Caster]

Thanks,Stijloor

Thats`right, I mean things like that.
But sometimes problem ( actually It is not so big "problem") is if we talk about really valuable things coming from QMS, such as: process improvement (to make it more efficiency) , financial gain, gain for personnel individually- the last one is asked to me very often , " whats the point for me?". What instruments do you use to describe QMS advantages, especially for individuals.
Juris

Most people have zero interest in a QMS...they rightly ask, what's in it for me (WIIFM)? And they have less than zero interest in ISO 9000.

I only ever talk about business, I try to go days and weeks without saying the word quality.

Quality is a result of a business system. Sometimes it is a department within a business system. It is an output of the business system.

Trying to drive the business with quality is why so many of us are so frustrated in our profession (see the many sad threads here).

The best tool we have is cost of poor quality. Every problem has a dollar cost. Business systems can be put in place to sometimes avoid those costs. (notice I didn't say quality).

These costs are huge, know them, use them to sell.

Radio? Lost revenues due to lost advertisers? Lost any big accounts lately? Why? Lost a lot of small accounts lately? Why?

WIIFM? Imagine a day with no problems, no complaints....that's WIIFM

What could you do if you didn't have to fight fires all day?

The worst mistake ISO made was to put the word quality in the title.

These are business management systems, but because of that horrible word in the title they get delegated to the department least able to make the changes needed.

I am a broken record, every time there is a problem I can be counted on to say, imagine if we had a system in place to anticipate that....think of the effort and money we could have saved...and gee, look here is a system we could try..its called ISO 9000....

 

[Juris]

Thanks to Caster ,
well done, really, what you sad is very deep and true.
Actually, I always try to forget the word "quality"...and I don' t use "Quality manual" but "Management system manual".
According COP - thats true, cost of poor quality is good and strong tool but if you are able to get data...

Also thanks to Jane,

One question - if enterprise management system could be almost the same as Quality management system - why we call it by different names?

And what the difference between
"Coordinated activities to direct and control an organization with regard to quality" and "Coordinated activities to direct and control an organization".
Does it mean that second one exclude quality??

Thanks in advance for every ideas.
Juris

 

[JaneB]

One question - if enterprise management system could be almost the same as Quality management system - why we call it by different names?

That's the English language for you

The whole issue of 'systems thinking' is an interesting one. Every system has a border (between what is part of it and what is not part of it). Where the border is drawn often determines what the system is. (The largest system of all is the universe I think, in which there are countless billions/trillions or perhaps more of systems.)

And what the difference between
"Coordinated activities to direct and control an organization with regard to quality" and "Coordinated activities to direct and control an organization".
Does it mean that second one exclude quality??

Juris, I don't know how useful this is as a distinction - I really raised it in the sense of not confusing PROCESS with SYSTEM, but the difference between a QMS and an EMS might be a somewhat theoretical point.

A Quality System can be a component (subsystem) of an even larger whole: an enterprise management system. I think it's unlikely (but still theoretically possible) that it would be the other way around, ie that an enterprise management system would be part of a quality system.

The main focus of a quality system is on customer satisfaction & making sure that product/service meets requirements. The main focus of an enterprise management is on the enterprise itself & particularly financially. In an ideal world, they'd be the same focus, but they may not necessarily be.

The phrase Enterprise Management System is also often used in the IT/software world to describe certain enterprise-wide large electronic systems that cover the whole enterprise (such as SAP), where it records, controls & directs data & transactions from ordering to stock control to suppliers to nonconformities and corrective action. "Bean-counters" - (ie, accountants) love such systems. But it won't necessarily have all the requirements that, say, ISO 9001 has.

Quite honestly, I'd probably not worry about the distinction at the moment - it doesn't matter (strictly speaking) what you call it, just focus on the System and what it is to do. Putting the word 'quality' in (alas!) often is confusing and/or limiting.

You could for example have a system that YOU call Bloggs Enterprise Management System which an auditor happily recognises as an ISO 9001 quality system.

 

[Paul Simpson]

Now, my apologies in advance if I confuse more than I help .... I try not to, but.

Actually, I always try to forget the word "quality"...and I don' t use "Quality manual" but "Management system manual".

Good. The more you use the wording that others use the better. If "quality" has a bad reputation in your organization (but how could it? ) then use other words that do not upset the employees.

One question - if enterprise management system could be almost the same as Quality management system - why we call it by different names?

And what the difference between
"Coordinated activities to direct and control an organization with regard to quality" and "Coordinated activities to direct and control an organization".

This is because ISO 9001 is only concerned with aspects of quality (and therefore the quality management system). The "enterprise" management system covers all that the quality management system covers but more - like environmental management, health & safety, finance, employment.

Now there are others on the cove who believe the quality management system can be extended to cover other things. See here for just one example.

I, among others, believe you should integrate quality management with the enterprise management system but you shouldn't confuse quality matters with other business matters.

So if you have a process that covers, for example, how you receive customer orders then it might cover:

• quality aspects - such as specification required
• commercial considerations - price, discounts etc.
• environmental - expectations for how the company deals with waste
• ethical issues - requirements for labour rates, use of child workers

Now if you want an integrated system you might choose to document this process to describe how you evaluate orders against all of these aspects to make sure you meet them.

If you "just" want a quality system all you describe is how you check specification requirements - not all the other areas.

Does it mean that second one exclude quality??

No. As explained above. A quality management system is that part of the organization's management system that deals with quality.

 

[Juris]

The whole issue of 'systems thinking' is an interesting one. Every system has a border (between what is part of it and what is not part of it). Where the border is drawn often determines what the system is. (The largest system of all is the universe I think, in which there are countless billions/trillions or perhaps more of systems.)


Juris, I don't know how useful this is as a distinction - I really raised it in the sense of not confusing PROCESS with SYSTEM, but the difference between a QMS and an EMS might be a somewhat theoretical point.



A Quality System can be a component (subsystem) of an even larger whole: an enterprise management system. I think it's unlikely (but still theoretically possible) that it would be the other way around, ie that an enterprise management system would be part of a quality system.

The main focus of a quality system is on customer satisfaction & making sure that product/service meets requirements. The main focus of an enterprise management is on the enterprise itself & particularly financially. In an ideal world, they'd be the same focus, but they may not necessarily be.

Thanks Jane,
In other words (just for my understanding) - Quality management system deals with processes concerning customers. In my case (our company is radio broadcaster) that would be [core processes] program production process, commercial advertising process, process for corporate activities,
[quality management processes] - audience measurement process, management of Nonconformity, audience/clients complaints, management rewiev process, internal audit, CAPA....
[support processes] - personnel, finance, technic, internal and external (PR) comunication,
[management processes] - and that is most difficult for me to understand,
WHAt is management processes within Quality management system?
Yes, it could be, management rewiev again, also IA again, and even quality management altlogether ?




Thanks
Juris

 

[Juris]

Thanks Paul,

I can`t use "Quote" ... I don`t know how
I goute using " ".

PAUL: "Good. The more you use the wording that others use the better. If "quality" has a bad reputation in your organization (but how could it? ) then use other words that do not upset the employees"

If I use word 'Quality" people think that is for me (or my job, registrar, top management sometimes, etc) but not for them



PAUL: "So if you have a process that covers, for example, how you receive customer orders then it might cover:
* quality aspects - such as specification required
* commercial considerations - price, discounts etc.
* environmental - expectations for how the company deals with waste
* ethical issues - requirements for labour rates, use of child workers"


If our company has process that covers, for example, how we produce our radio programmes i.e."Program production process", then it cover:
audience expectation and needs, technical quality, broadcasting quality, managing HR, Finance (budget control) , control of NC, program design and development, program implementation.
What is what, where can I find a clear line between quality management and enterprise management?

Thanks in advance for any comments.
Juris

 

[Paul Simpson]

If I use word 'Quality" people think that is for me (or my job, registrar, top management sometimes, etc) but not for them

In this case use another word.


If our company has process that covers, for example, how we produce our radio programmes i.e."Program production process", then it cover:
audience expectation and needs This falls under the quality banner as it includes identifying design inputs (see below). These expectations are then used throughout design and planning of programs and then monitoring to see that these expectations have been met,
technical quality Again quality, the output has to meet the technical specification, presumably power output, attenuation, signal to noise etc. But technical quality is achieved through technical processes! ,
broadcasting quality Sounds D ) like quality - not sure how this differs from technical quality.,
managing HR Mainly enterprise but personnel competence comes under quality as does internal communications on quality,
Finance (budget control) Enterprise ,
control of NC Generally quality,
program design and development Again a technical process (enterprise) that has quality aspects (Reviews, verification against user needs and expectations, validation of programs (pilot runs) etc.),
program implementation Not sure about this one - can you explain?.

What is what, where can I find a clear line between quality management and enterprise management? [/QUOTE]

RE: Quoting. If you use the Quote button at the end of the post you want to post from it puts the original post in quotes. By selective use of cut and paste you can pick out points you want to deal with ... have a go! ... and good luck!

 

[Juris]

If our company has process that covers, for example, how we produce our radio programmes i.e."Program production process", then it cover:
audience expectation and needs This falls under the quality banner as it includes identifying design inputs (see below). These expectations are then used throughout design and planning of programs and then monitoring to see that these expectations have been met,

Thanks Paul,

I send to you our program production process in ppt. What do you think about it?
[/QUOTE] program implementation Not sure about this one - can you explain?.
[/QUOTE]

It means all procedures to produce (manufacture) program. Procedures like: How to submit a Program and how to reflect it in the Schedule
How to Order and Use a Studio
Production of Phonograms
How to prepare Texts for Live Presentation
Organization of “stock” recording sessions using in-house studios and Outside Broadcasting Operations
How to Use “stock” phonograms from Radio Archive , etc.

Thanks in advance.
Juris

 

[Paul Simpson]

It means all procedures to produce (manufacture) program. Procedures like: How to submit a Program and how to reflect it in the Schedule This looks like a "production planning activity (7.5.1)
How to Order and Use a Studio This could be part of production planning as above or part of the infrastructure type activity (6.3)
Production of Phonograms Not sure what "Phonograms" are - are these records (like trailers, jingles, advertisements?
How to prepare Texts for Live Presentation Again part of planning, a bit of document control (4.2.3)
Organization of “stock” recording sessions using in-house studios and Outside Broadcasting Operations Another bit of planning, I think.
How to Use “stock” phonograms from Radio Archive , etc. More product realization activity 7.5

I hope this helps - the usual get out clause - I'm judging by what you have sent through!