Ethical Aspects while being Consultant and Certifier within same Organization.

R

Rufat

#1
Hello Colleagues, :bigwave:

Recently I had a great discussion regarding potential ethical aspects while being Consultant and Certifier within one organization.

Will appreciate it if someone could explain in details: Why ISO consulting company cannot be registrar and vice versa?
In 10019 it states : 4.3 Ethical considerations:
c) maintain independence from quality management system certification/registration or accreditation bodies,
d) maintain impartiality in the organization's selection of certification/registration bodies, …
then why can't company has two separate and independent from each other departments: consulting – to advise company how to get certified and certifier – to certify (like holding I would say)? Are there any accreditation rules that prohibit this?

Thanks in advance!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#2
Hello Colleagues, :bigwave:

Recently I had a grate discussion regarding potential ethical aspects while being Consultant and Certifier within one organization.

Will appreciate it if someone could explain in details: Why ISO consulting company cannot be registrar and vice versa?
In 10019 it states : 4.3 Ethical considerations:
c) maintain independence from quality management system certification/registration or accreditation bodies,
d) maintain impartiality in the organization's selection of certification/registration bodies, ?
then why can't company has two separate and independent from each other departments: consulting ? to advise company how to get certified and certifier ? to certify (like holding I would say)? Are there any accreditation rules that prohibit this?

Thanks in advance!
How can it be assured that the two separarate divisions are independent of one another when the money from each goes into the same pot?
 
R

Rufat

#3
How can it be assured that the two separarate divisions are independent of one another when the money from each goes into the same pot?
I understand the concern but....is it states somewhere you should prove this? I mean, there are different people/specialists working in different departrments within one organization with a fixed salary... Can you please advise any standards/guidelines etc. I can refer to?
 
N

nicolene

#4
I understand the concern but....is it states somewhere you should prove this? I mean, there are different people/specialists working in different departrments within one organization with a fixed salary... Can you please advise any standards/guidelines etc. I can refer to?

As far as my knowledge (the little I have :lol:), there is no requirement apart from what you already mentioned.

You cannot prove that the people working in different departments have not had contact with each other re: consulting/certifying, but apart from that you would not want it to seem biased.

It makes sense that a company would seek to protect their customer's interest, and if one company consults/certifies I would be very wary of their certification.
 
R

Rufat

#5
As far as my knowledge (the little I have :lol:), there is no requirement apart from what you already mentioned.

You cannot prove that the people working in different departments have not had contact with each other re: consulting/certifying, but apart from that you would not want it to seem biased.

It makes sense that a company would seek to protect their customer's interest, and if one company consults/certifies I would be very wary of their certification.
:confused:
OK then what are the underlined that registrars usually perform:

Awareness training
Auditor training
Pre-certification audits
Certification audits
Surveillance audits
Re-Certifications

In addition there are some independent auditors that serve one or more registrars that also provide consulting services... I would appreciate if anyone can direct me to the any standards or guidelines where it clearly states/or logically make sense that consulting and certification can not exist within one organization.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#6
In my thinking, an organization faces an almost insurmountable "appearance" of conflict of interest when it purports to consult with a client on "how" to do something and then turns around and "certifies" that same client meets an International Standard on the topic it consulted about.

A poor, but apt, analogy would be for a law firm to defend a client and then have a judge who received income from that law firm declare the client innocent. Sometimes the conflict is merely friendship or acquaintanceship with other attorneys in the firm who are NOT actively working on the client's defense.

Universities purport to teach students in the professions, but in the USA, states and local governments have independent licensing and registration boards which certify whether the graduate can actually practice as such professional, NOT the university.

All this is not to say an organization may not do BOTH consulting and certifying, just not both for the same client.

Think of the oft-quoted reason Julius Caesar gave for divorcing his wife, Pompeia, "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion."
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#7
... I would appreciate if anyone can direct me to the any standards or guidelines where it clearly states/or logically make sense that consulting and certification can not exist within one organization.
The standard in question is ISO 17021. In several sections of the standard it talks about the potential threat to impartiality (ie obvious) conflict of interest. While there are different opinions on the subject, my professional judgement is that you CAN have the same organization performing certification and consulting services. What you CAN'T have is the same organization performing in both roles to the same client/system.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
Sidney Vianna ISO/TS 17033:2019 Providing confidence in Ethical Claims Other ISO and International Standards and European Regulations 0
J IEC 62366 - Ethical approval IEC 62366 - Medical Device Usability Engineering 5
Sidney Vianna Auditors and CB's further investigating certified QMS' with ethical breaches? Registrars and Notified Bodies 8
K Ethical Hacking Course iN Chennai Service Industry Specific Topics 2
K How does an Internal Auditor document non-ethical or illegal practices Internal Auditing 10
K Has anyone had experience dealing with SEDEX (Supplier Ethical Data Exchange)? Customer and Company Specific Requirements 4
Sidney Vianna Another ethical breach for an ISO 9001 certified company? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 29
D Ethical Question - Generate a Corrective Action to force a response and action Philosophy, Gurus, Innovation and Evolution 15
R Ethics: Ethical Question - Knowingly Violating a Regulatory Requirement Philosophy, Gurus, Innovation and Evolution 20
A Ethics: Ethical Decisions Philosophy, Gurus, Innovation and Evolution 4
Marc Predicting COVID-19 Aspects - Pandemic Modeling (Easter 2020) Coffee Break and Water Cooler Discussions 11
S How to Learn all aspects of ISO 27001:2013 | The best way to grab the knowledge on 27001:2013 (Step by Step) IEC 27001 - Information Security Management Systems (ISMS) 7
A Domain of the component (EASA CM No.: CM-SWCEH-001 Issue 01 Revision 02) Point 9.3.3 (Usage domain aspects) EASA and JAA Aviation Standards and Requirements 0
B Interesting Discussion The legal aspects of Customer Specific Requirements (Contract Law). IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 12
V Environmental aspects in a bank ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 7
C Legal or Regulatory Requirements as identified in our Environmental Aspects ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 9
qualprod Propose Aspects to evaluate risk impact? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 1
K Trying to figure out what satisfies a few aspects of IEC 62304 IEC 62304 - Medical Device Software Life Cycle Processes 2
Pmarszal Label Printing: Medical Device related UDI Requirements - GUDID Aspects Other US Medical Device Regulations 0
Paul Simpson Does Knowledge Management include aspects of Information Security? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 7
Pmarszal Two Questions on UDI Product Description (GS1 US and GTIN aspects) Other US Medical Device Regulations 2
B ISO 14001:2015 Aspects and Impacts: Haze occurrence (Supplier related) ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 3
M First Article Build (FAB) Process - Build and Test Aspects AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 3
G Supplier Significant Environmental Aspects - Audit Finding ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 21
Q ISO 9001 Requirement Dilemma - Security Aspects Quality Management System (QMS) Manuals 14
x-files [QMS] Identification and Evaluation of Aspects, Impacts and Risks... ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 2
S Format for Significant Environmental Aspects Study ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 8
S Justification of Lifetime of a Medical Device including Component Aspects ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 13
N FDA Aspects - No Improvements to 12 Year Old Software ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 4
M Auto Parts Warehousing Facility ISO 14001 Significant Aspects ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 23
R Regulatory Aspects of Co-Packaging Medical Device and Cosmetic Other Medical Device and Orthopedic Related Topics 6
R ISO is certified to ISO 14001:2004 - What are their Significant Environmental Aspects ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 2
I Feedback on an Environmental Aspects and Impacts Register Miscellaneous Environmental Standards and EMS Related Discussions 5
G Aspects - Use of Purchased Steel Miscellaneous Environmental Standards and EMS Related Discussions 8
S Basic Environmental Aspects Register template wanted Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 1
K Change Control for Software System that Controls Aspects of GMP Quality Assurance and Compliance Software Tools and Solutions 5
P What are all the Regulatory Affairs Aspects Various Other Specifications, Standards, and related Requirements 10
A 2 Aspects of Services Design - Design of the Service and Design of Service Delivery Service Industry Specific Topics 2
A Outsourcing Records Storage - Compliance Aspects to be considered during Audits Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 7
V Depth of Internal Auditing and Training aspects in Research & Development (R & D) Internal Auditing 4
F Not another thread about what Environmental Aspects are... Miscellaneous Environmental Standards and EMS Related Discussions 19
Sidney Vianna ISO/IEC Guide 63:2012 - Medical Device Safety Aspects Other Medical Device Related Standards 1
K Competence, Training and Awareness - Documenting Training and Confidentiality Aspects ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 12
Sidney Vianna ISO/IEC Guide 63:2012 - Safety Aspects in International Standards for Medical Devices Other Medical Device Related Standards 1
S ISO/IEC Guide 51: 1999, Safety Aspects - Guidelines for their inclusion in standards Food Safety - ISO 22000, HACCP (21 CFR 120) 4
N ISO 14001 Control vs. Influence - Environmental Aspects Identification ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 6
S Natural Gas Power Plant - Aspects & Impacts Miscellaneous Environmental Standards and EMS Related Discussions 8
Sidney Vianna Environmental Aspects of Products - A forgotten issue in ISO 14001 Audits? ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 12
K Environmental Aspects and Impacts of a Welding Process (ISO 14001) ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 5
P Environmental Aspects and Impacts while doing Software Development ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 6

Similar threads

Top Bottom