Ethics: Audit Question points auditor to a possible nonconformance

E

energy

#31
Re: Re: Ethical audit question

Originally posted by HFowler
I've had auditors ask me if there is a particular area that I would like for them to concentrate on. This has been a help when you're not getting adequate supportBest Regards,
Hank Fowler
:)
Now really, is that ethical?:biglaugh: I would do something like that, as a last resort.:ko: :smokin:
 
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J
#32
Me thinks he doth protest too much (or some such quote)

Usually if we ask a question about ethics, its because we know what the ethical answer is, and we don't like it.:ca: :bonk: :frust:

James:eek:
 
H

HFowler

#33
Energy,

That's what I mean. If I'm not getting support in resolving findiings from internal audits, as a last resort, I might lead an auditor so that management hears it from an outside source.


Greg,

Surveillance visits are very expensive, I have a couple of regulatory agencies that pay a cursory visit 4 times a year each and receive a substantial payment for a 5 minute visit.

I'm definitely not getting my money's worth there.

:(
 
E

energy

#34
me too!

Originally posted by HFowler
Energy,
That's what I mean. If I'm not getting support in resolving findiings from internal audits, as a last resort, I might lead an auditor so that management hears it from an outside source.
When I said that's what I would do, I meant it too. It would have to be a serious situation. I wouldn't use it just because someone in upper management disagrees with my interpretation of something. A last resort! Exactly. I just can't get the fact out of my head that the company name appears on my paycheck and they are expecting a service and reasonable loyalty. :ko: :smokin:
 

RCW

Quite Involved in Discussions
#35
More information for the survey

Okay, I'm halfway done sifting through all the responses given so far. Let me give you the actual situation as it occured during an ISO 9002 surveilance audit.

The element under question was calibration of test equipment. The auditor was questioning the calibration procedure for DMMs which are internally calibrated. This procedure is used for three types of DMMs we use, all 3-1/2 meters, all similar meters but not all the same models.

The was a question regarding the tolerance of the voltage used for calibration. The tolerance was listed in the owner's manual for one of the meters but not in the other two (and the auditor was looking at one of the "other two"). Remember, the meters are similar but different models.

So there I sat, do I take the hit for a questionable tolerance or do I pull out the owner's manual for a similar meter but not for THAT meter, thinking that there is a possibility the auditor would question where the tolerance was listed for the meter he was looking at. Of course I was speculating him asking that but such is the life of an auditee.

All in all the answer to the survey would probably be C). Tell your cheap boss to send the meters out to a cal lab so you don't have to deal with this problem in the first place! :vfunny:


A subnote:

I was bothered by a few comments such as if there was a deficiency then why wasn't it picked up before the audit. My response is that no system (quality or other) is perfect and there will always be minor flaws hidden within. If all deficiencies were already known there wouldn't be much of a need for audits then.

Also another comment was made to immediately issue a corrective action for the problem before the auditor left. My boss (The Prez) did that on another unrealted deficiency and he showed the auditor. The auditor said he didn't want to see it and asked my boss if he truly took the time to determine the root cause of the problem (I agree with the auditor and I wish I said or could have said that!). My boss's face turned beet red from embarrassment. Needless to say my boss treats the quality system as a trophy.

So much for ethics.
 
E

energy

#36
Thanks for the clarification

RCW,

Great explanation. It appears that you were caught between the proverbial rock and a hard place. And I totally agree with your comment that no system is perfect and that's why there is a need for auditors. They will continue looking until they have justified their existence. I say give them a few up front and then they leave happily. Otherwise, they may be there until midnight. If you work days, that's a bad thing! :biglaugh: :ko: :smokin:
 
#37
Too much information!

RCW,

Never worry about not giving us too much information. Had you explained the situation fully, there would might not have been nearly as much flow of ideas. Sometimes speculation and tangents allow us to explore areas that can only be found by lack of information. After all, rumors and innuendoes are only fun when all the facts aren’t available.

You also commented:
“I was bothered by a few comments such as if there was a deficiency then why wasn't it picked up before the audit. My response is that no system (quality or other) is perfect and there will always be minor flaws hidden within. If all deficiencies were already known there wouldn't be much of a need for audits then.”

My thinking there is if you knew the deficiency existed prior to the audit, then you should have taken action when it was discovered. There have been times that a deficiency is discovered by the auditee during the audit. That’s an entirely different matter. In that case I probably would not have said anything to the auditor and wrote a CA on it after the audit was complete. I think all deficiencies need to have CAs as soon as they are discovered.

No, energy, this does not mean you have to shut down the plant just to fix everything :vfunny: (there would be no reason to restart). Timelines and resources can be allocated based on impact and payback. The point is problems need to be addressed, even if the decision is to place them on the back burner. I will shut up now before I get in more trouble

:frust:
 
E

energy

#38
Re: Too much information!

Originally posted by db
auditee during the audit. That’s an entirely different matter. In No, energy, this does not mean you have to shut down the plant just to fix everything :vfunny: (there would be no reason to restart). Timelines and resources can be allocated based on impact and payback. The point is problems need to be addressed, even if the decision is to place them on the back burner. I will shut up now before I get in more trouble
:frust:
Huh? What? Where? Are you addressing me? You talkin to me?What are we talking about here? :vfunny: I know my mind is going, but I don't recollect saying that. Is it some kind of MI humor?:bonk: :ko: :smokin:
 
A

Aaron Lupo

#39
Re: Thanks for the clarification

Originally posted by energy
RCW,

They will continue looking until they have justified their existence. I say give them a few up front and then they leave happily. Otherwise, they may be there until midnight. If you work days, that's a bad thing! :biglaugh: :ko: :smokin:

Energy what is that comment supposed to mean?
 
#40
Puttin words in your mouth

energy,

Originally posted by energy
"I don't recollect saying that"

You didn't, I was anticipating your response based on previous comments (not necessarily in this thread). I apologize for putting words in your mouth and I promise it might just happen again. Wait…I don’t think I said that right!

:bonk:
 
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