Ethics: Audit Question points auditor to a possible nonconformance

barb butrym

Quite Involved in Discussions
#61
i confess as a consultant i have ocassionally used low hanging fruit......sometimes its not worth the effort to fight the system, and if you know thats the type of auditor you will be getting....then, hell you would be crazy not to play the game.

because I hate that so passionately........and think better of myself and the standard, I refuse to play that game as an auditor. if i suspect low hanging fruit, I typically ...off handed and ever so subtle........let them know that i know. I love it when I can say ZERO n/c...i suspect that fear of missing something drives some auditors to have a quota......probably lack of confidence in the system and themselves as auditors, or maybe an ego trip. As much as i hate that, there are worse things that audtors do.

there is an auditor i know, that is also a consultant, i have audited.....that auditor/consultant implements a lousy system, and is ready to pounce on me ( you can just see/feel it) when i am auditing in its defense ...yet ..... that same auditor would salivate if presented what i am presented and write a page fullof n/c....The system, although lousy, covers the shalls.............just covers. It adds no value to the company...SAD but it passes. I raise observations, but cannot raise a n/c...the system meets the requirement.........this time the auditor/consultant had the balls to say "you are lucky barbara is the auditor, anyone else would hang you out on that" I realized then what a game people play.....what the hell did they present it that way for then? the requirement was documented, the evidence/record was there. Certainly not the best approach, not my way, but it meant the intent of the standard, and the evidence was there that it was done.....I made an observation that there was opportunity for improvement, and i am out of there. SO WHAT WOULD YOU DO? I WANTED TO DEFEND MYSELF...so i asked the consultant, exactly where do you see it doesn't meet the standard? of course there was no answer.....and i just moved on. That same auditor/consultant is one of the "gotch' type that gets fat off hanging fruit!!!!!!!!!!!




:bigwave:
 
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E

energy

#63
They're not here!

Barb,

I truly feel that that type of auditor does not frequent the Cove. Maybe passes through, but would not participate. They are usually arrogant and so full of themselves, there is no room for compromise. I've run across them in one form or another. I've worked with Inspectors with the same attitude. When it comes to crunch time, they're gone. They feel that anybody left behind was an as- kisser because no one was better than they!:vfunny: My resentment is reserved for those that think they are the experts, with no patience for anybody that doesn't see things their way. As you can tell by the several hundred pounds of crow and humble pie that I've consumed here in these forums, I can usually tell the difference between what I thought and the facts. To me, I respect anybody who entertains the thought that they may be incorrect in some of their assumptions. At meetings here, I sometimes get short with people and quickly realize that I may better serve the company by listening a little harder. By doing that, I have come to understand what people who continually talk about here mean by being a victim of their own paradigms. A year ago, I never heard the term. Keep punchin, Girl!
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#64
HFowler said:
If I'm not getting support in resolving findiings from internal audits, as a last resort, I might lead an auditor so that management hears it from an outside source.
This is quite typical. Someone is frustrated because they have tried to get internal action and nothing happens. To some it is a way to 'get some action' on something that needs to be resolved.

I won't get into whether it's ethical or not in this post.
 
D

D.Scott

#65
"I won't get into whether it's ethical or not in this post."

I will. If your system is so weak and ineffective that you can't get internal action, you are either in the wrong job or the wrong company. If the only way you can get upper management's attention is to "blow a whistle", you are either doing a poor job or working for a company that could care less about quality. If you take it to management and they consider it unimportant, you have either presented it wrong or you are talking to a wall.
Either way, you need to consider why you are working there. To me, the unethical part would be to stay with a company who only gives lip service to quality while you "turn your back" on it so you can stay employed. You should know well in advance of any outside audit that there is a problem with management commitment and that should have been addressed with management in the management review at a minimum. If you had no support, you should have left the company. Staying on and turning to an outside auditor to resolve it would IMHO be a cop-out.
An effective quality system follows a series of pre-determined steps. "Stabbing your employer in the back" or "broadsiding" have never appeared as steps in any system I ever wrote.
I recognize others may not agree with this position but I am sticking with it.
Dave
 
A

amr1234

#66
Ethical or Unethical Question

I am stickler for being ethical. That being said, I have recently recieved my certification for TS Internal Auditor. The question that falls under the ethical umbrella is way out of my scope of understanding. I shall elaborate.

My company has sent people to TS Auditor training. They were unable to given a certificate because the Trainer was not qualified to train because he was not certified. As I understand his GM and Ford requrements were lacking.


Now, the rub is, I am being asked to train the people who attended on the GM and Ford information. Then the company wants me to attach my certificate to their papers. The company is saying it's ok.

I am not comfortable at all.

Can anyone help me?


:eek: :thanx:
 
#67
amr1234 said:
I am stickler for being ethical. That being said, I have recently recieved my certification for TS Internal Auditor. The question that falls under the ethical umbrella is way out of my scope of understanding. I shall elaborate.

My company has sent people to TS Auditor training. They were unable to given a certificate because the Trainer was not qualified to train because he was not certified. As I understand his GM and Ford requrements were lacking.


Now, the rub is, I am being asked to train the people who attended on the GM and Ford information. Then the company wants me to attach my certificate to their papers. The company is saying it's ok.

I am not comfortable at all.

I'm not so sure this is an ethical question. Excluding Customer Specific Requirements (CSR), are you competent to train others? If the answer is no, then you shouldn't train them. It is not a case of ethics, but one of competence.

Now let's look at the CSR issue. I used to teach the core tools for the AIAG. Yet, I could not show I was trained on them, so a Ford STA said I was not qualified to teach TS internal auditing. Ethics might not have anything to do with the matter. Ford requires instructors to be trained on all of the stuff they are teaching. I had to shell out a bunch of money to attend a class that covered the core tools. In the three day class, we spent less than 15 minutes (total) on the core tools. But, it met the requirements, and I walked away with a cert. The STA was satisfied. If you have been through the training (supposing it meets Ford requirements), and meet the requirements of 4.39.3, then you are qualified to train. If you do not meet the requirements, then the training will not be accepted by your registrar.

Ethics will only come into play if you (or someone) takes actions to make you appear qualified, when you are not.

Hope that helps.
 
A

amr1234

#68
Ethics or not

Thanks for the reply. I need to further clarify. I am trained as a TS auditor and my training included GM & Ford requirements and RAB Certified. There are three other TS auditors who are not certified, in fact their certificate only states that they attended the classes. Their trainer had not been trained for some reason.

I will be training them based on my qualifications. My Certificate validates this.

Then comes the question of several other auditors who were trained by another company. I have no idea what the reason is why they are not eligible for TS auditoring. I am being asked to train these people and then add my certificate to their's to make them legal.

I have no idea whether they are even trained or capable enough to be TS Auditors.

Maybe it's not a ethical question but it's difficult for me to rubber stamp anyone.

:argue: :truce: :magic:
 
#69
amr1234 said:
Then comes the question of several other auditors who were trained by another company. I have no idea what the reason is why they are not eligible for TS auditoring. I am being asked to train these people and then add my certificate to their's to make them legal.
When I teach TS internal auditing, we provide a syllabus that shows the course content. My bio and my RAB cert, and my cert from the qualifying class is also available upon request. We do this to as you say; "make them legal".

If you actually train the auditors, then you are not just "rebber stamping" them. You are verifying they understand the material as required in 4.39. The only thing I see wrong with a company training their own internal auditors is that I'm not teaching the class. :rolleyes:

Are you concerned that you might not be qualified (or competent) to train (or perhaps you would be perceived by others as not being qualified)? What type of training is being proposed? Is this going to be a fairly formal class, or just working with them through audits? Is the training going to be nothing more than just attaching your cert to theirs? Questions, questions questions...
 
A

amr1234

#70
Responding

I am very qualified to teach the Process Auditing and the TS Auditing. After simple conversations with the Previous TS Aduitors, the people who I am being asked to "rubber stamp them", I am very convinced they have not grasped the concept of TS auditing is different than QS auditing. They, at the minimum, do not understand that TS/TS auditing is based on input to a process conversely output. IE: CEO ... that is a process. That position has inputs and outputs.


:lmao: :mg:
 
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