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Evaluating Training Effectiveness - 6.2.2 Competence, Awareness and Training

C

CBAL08

#41
Hello I have also been struggeling with this issue and after reading all the posts I still am confused as to how we have the evidence for the effectiveness of traning -being a small company we do this by observing the work performance....and that is all we have been doing but the confusion is how do we record this?Please Help.
 
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Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#42
Hello I have also been struggling with this issue and after reading all the posts I still am confused as to how we have the evidence for the effectiveness of training -being a small company we do this by observing the work performance....and that is all we have been doing but the confusion is how do we record this?Please Help.
You record the fact that you observed the performance of the employee over a determined length of time and file that with the employee's personnel records (hard copy or electronic). That's all there is to it. Also it's a good idea to maintain any certificates of training provided by external training providers.

Stijloor.
 
#43
In my experience, although not everyone does it this way, the sequence should be:-

Define 'competence'

Evaluate competence

Identify action to improve competence, e.g training

Deliver training

Evaluate competence

If the person going into the training wasn't competent is some way, before training, they should - if the training was effective - be able to demonstrate competence after the training!

Simples!
 
J

JaneB

#44
I would however be interested to hear your view on evaluating the "effectiveness of training". e.g. say 100 people had gone through a training program - how do we evaluate how good that program is?

If everybody passes (competent) is it a good program?
Interesting question. To me, it depends on what you mean by 'good'. Ideally, I think one would clearly identify what the 'success criteria' are before the training is done, so that you can then assess against those predefined criteria.

My opinion is that we have a typical - input - output situation. If the Input is poor (delegate) then this will effect the output.

It is my opinion that pre-selection for training is often deficient -The base requirements for the employee "to become competent" forms a major part of ensuring overall employee competence.
Here you've put your finger on an important element and one that is debated long and hard by almost anyone with an interest in education and training! People are not just 'all the same'. You can't measure and preselect as rigidly as you can, say, raw materials for a manufacturing process.

In my experience, although not everyone does it this way, the sequence should be:-

Define 'competence'

Evaluate competence

Identify action to improve competence, e.g training

Deliver training

Evaluate competence

If the person going into the training wasn't competent is some way, before training, they should - if the training was effective - be able to demonstrate competence after the training!

Simples!
Sounds simple in theory, but doesn't always quite work out that way in practice.
Another variable is: people learn in different ways. What's an excellent training course for some people may not be for others. Some learn by doing, some learn by listening, others infinitely prefer instructor-led models, etc etc.

And yet another is the actual course content. Now, while I agree that some fairly mechanistic or skill-based competencies can be fairly easily delivered and measured (eg, basic computer skill such as "can they now create a basic Excel spreadsheet?" or the use of a particular cutting tool perhaps, not every competency one wishes to impart can be either defined or assessed as simply. Higher level, knowledge intensive tasks (eg, those dealing with abstraction, and uncertainty/recognising patterns of behaviour/problem-solving) are much harder.

Finally, I'm not comfortable with the idea that the only person whose opinion matters in assessing whether a course was effective is their supervisor. This completely ignores the people learning and essentially treats them as little passive jugs to be filled with competency! how would you like to be thought of like that? I'd much rather get feedback from the learners themselves as to how effective it was.

A personal story to illustrate: I did a 5 day lead auditor course twice, with 2 different CBs, some years apart. Same course, same supposed content and desired outcomes.

Yet my belief is that only one of those courses was really effective. Brilliant - I learned heaps. The other... frankly, a waste of time in which I learned almost nothing.

But if you'd simply 'asked my supervisor to obvserve me' you wouldn't have got that information.
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#45
Jane,

I think that you're too focused on (classroom-type) training.

My response and also Andy's (correct me Andy!) was more focused on evaluating competence (demonstrated ability to apply knowledge and skills) in the workplace.

An employee can sit in a classroom and learn and pass tests, but that does not necessarily mean that this person can DO. As this and other threads demonstrates is that folks still confuse training with competency. Yes, observations by a (competent ;)) supervisor/manager is in my opinion a very good way to assess competency.

In the end, all I would be interested in is what my employee can DO.

Stijloor.
 
#46
Hello Jane!

I'm making a distinction - as Jan is too - that there's a whole world of difference between educating someone, like the LA course does, with some adult style learning examples (workshops) where you get to practice what you heard - and competency which comes from the actual transfer of skills.

As we both know, the LA course is a great example where people (and I'm guessing you've met them) can 'shine' as a student, but are woefully lacking the the practical application of what they heard and saw in class, when it's applied in the workplace. I'd also suggest that your personal example is a very different case from most mere mortals who attend!;)
 
J

JaneB

#47
Yes Andy and Jan, I am aware of the difference between undergoing education/training, getting a wonderful result 'in theory' and actually being competent.

And thoroughly agree with your point that it's ultimately what the person can DO that's important - which is the whole point of competency: what are they competent at doing?

I disagree that I am "too focussed on classroom training" (not sure how you get that idea!) I definitely am not focussed on, say, training in mechanical/workshop/trade-type skills, because that's not my forte. Service businesses are... and the issues of defining competency (for a start), achieving it, and evaluating the effectiveness of training are interesting ones in some of those.

I may be debating the topic on a more abstract level of interest (how does one go about evaluating effectiveness? what kinds of ways work and what don't?) but then, I think topics are worth debating on various levels. Yes, a simple answer is 'the supervisor can make this evaluation'. I just don't always think that is or should be the only answer nor the be-all/end-all.

PS AndyN - on a purely personal note, the person delivering the outstanding course was our mutual acquaintance.
 

somashekar

Staff member
Super Moderator
#48
~~~ Who so ever is responsible to evaluate training effectiveness must be first effectively trained (over and over again if needed) to be able to:
1. Determine the gaps in available competency
2. See this gap is visibly closed after training over good period of post training work.
 
X

XIO549

#49
Hi guys.

I've read the thread above and have a slightly different twist on the same question, that I hope some of you can comment on for me. :tg:

I have an employee who has recently completed First Aid Training.
I have recorded the training and maintain a copy of the training certificate in his file.

When it comes to 6.2.2 c and I must demonstrate that we have evaluated the effectiveness of the training, I am at a loss.

If it were 'design' or 'manual works' training, then great, we can get the supervisor to monitor and record improvements, or not.

However, as the training is in the field of First Aid or (General Health & Safety in the Workplace) the evaluation really cannot be done until we see how the employee performs on the duties at hand.
And on that point, we have no other First Aid personnel that we can appoint to carry out the evaluation (with expert knowledge).

Perhaps this is one of those problems that the system does not actually include as the training involved does not have a direct effect on 'Quality of Product' or in terms of effecting us meeting the customers requirements... or maybe it does in terms of complying with mandatory legislation.

Any comments welcome in this regard.

Xio.
:)
 
J

JaneB

#50
Interesting problem, yes.
Strictly speaking I think it's an OH&S issue rather than ISO 9001. You may get a better response if raising it as that.

I'm not sure where you are getting the bit about 'direct' effect on quality of product or service. I draw your attention to the actual wording of the note under 6.2.2 :

NOTE Conformity to product requirements can be affected directly or indirectly by personnel performing any task within the quality management system.

Re. legal/statutory, the bit to look at is this:
1.1 General
This International Standard specifies requirements for a quality management system where an organization
a) needs to demonstrate its ability to consistently provide product that meets customer and applicable statutory and regulatory requirements, ....


<snip>
NOTE 1 In this International Standard, the term “product” only applies to
a) product intended for, or required by, a customer,
b) any intended output resulting from the product realization processes.
NOTE 2 Statutory and regulatory requirements can be expressed as legal requirements.
The key question is: does the first aid competency (or lack thereof) of your first aid person have an effect on the quality of your products/services? If so, what is it and how much of an effect is it?

I'm guessing not, and that it's something you're doing mainly to comply with OH&S requirements. If so, I'd consider it outside the scope of your certification. Yes, for personnel welfare and good company management of course you want to have someone around to give first aid and yes of course you need to comply with legal /statutory requirements which include those for first aid.

But if the quality of your products (or services of course) is unaffected either way, then consider it as beyond the scope.

One reason I believe certain bits around this were clarified in the 2008 version was to stop over-zealous quality auditors attempting to bring almost anything into a quality audit on fairly thin grounds. I once had an external auditor who spent almost the entire audit doing a safety audit of a workshop rather than a quality audit (with little benefit to the customer I might add).
 
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