Exclusion of 7.2 Customer Related Process

[harry]

ISO 9001 is a Quality Management System meant for "Businesses". Therefore it has to be interpreted with reference to common business practice and in particular, the way business is being carried out or conducted at that specific locality. If the customer at that particular location is internal, so be it. You may have a mix of both even though, external customers are the most common.

I think this is one reason why the process map or at least a description is needed - allows you to identify whom you are dealing with.

To blame the 14 pages of 'guideline' is just not logical.

 

[potdar]

You've got it.

Actually, I can't think of circumstances where one could exclude 7.2 (nor why on earth would one go for certification if one could).

The definition of customer in ISO 9000:2006 Quality management systems - fundamentals & vocabulary spells it out thusly:

"3.3.5 customer: organization or person that receives a product.

EXAMPLE Consumer, client, end-user, retailer, beneficiary and purchaser.

NOTE: A customer can be internal or external to the organization."

Not the whole of 7.2, but the major parts of 7.2 are not applicable incase of intellectual property controlled monopoly products even in case of external customers.

An example:

A gentleman by the name Misra developed a variety of of a local sweetmeat called Peda at a place Dharwar in India about a 100 years ago. Today his descendants hold a patent on the product which is famous internationally as 'Misra's Dharwar Peda'.

A limited quantity is made everyday. The shop opens at 0900 hrs. Customers are queued up. Rates are predetermined and announced in advance.The product is sold out by lunch time and the shop closes.

Under clause 7.2, only 7.2.1c - statutory requirements, 7.2.1d - requirements put in by the organisation and 7.2.3c - customer feedback are applicable.

We had a big debate on whether 7.2.2a - definition of product requirements would be applicable. It was finally decided that though definition of product requirements is a necessary process, the customer is not a participant in it. Hence it will not fall under clause 7.2

Net result - clause 7.2 is not applicable.

Comments?

 

[Peter Fraser]

No Peter, it is you who is putting in that 'external' word and then insisting that it is as per your belief. It isn't. If they were talking of the 'external customer' I'm confident that the Standard would have explicityly included the word external. It didn't. (And I would have been dismayed & horrified if it had.)

They're saying exactly what they mean to say: customer.

And the meaning of customer is explicitly defined in the vocabulary (ISO 9000: 2000).

And then to clarify in case there were still any doubt, a specific NOTE has been added stating 'a customer can be internal or external to the organization'.

I am having distinct trouble understanding why you have this insistence on believing that a customer can only be external. It just is not so.

Jane

I can understand why you are having trouble understanding why I believe that a customer can only be external - I don't! I raised the subject because I don't understand how the standard can talk about "Customer Related Processes" as distinct from any other type of process, if every process has a customer - by definition, EVERY process would be a "Customer Related Process". Unless it means only the "external" customer, which is how I read much of ISO9001.

And that is what I believe most folk think of when they talk about customer requirements, customer surveys, contract review, customer satisfaction etc (in relation to compliance).

Don't worry - I am totally in favour of recognising internal customers and managing processes accordingly. It's just that I don't think that the way the standard is written makes it very easy for a newcomer to see how to apply it. Maybe this is something for the other thread on the next version of the standard...

As I say, don't worry about me...!

 

[vanputten]

Potdar:

If no one bought the 'Misra's Dharwar Peda', do you think the organization would try to learn what the customer wants (requires?) Does the fact that they sell out by noon every day tell them they have appropriately reviewed and determined the customer's requirements?

And I bet the product requirements (7.2.2a) are defiend for internal purposes so it can be repeated every day. I bet the patent includes a defintion of product requriements.

Even though 7.2.2 is under the general heading of 7.2 Customer-related processes, does that mean that the requriements in 7.2.2 must be done by the customer? Can 7.2.2a be done by the organization without the customer directly involved?

Regards,

Dirk

 

[JaneB]

I am totally in favour of recognising internal customers and managing processes accordingly. It's just that I don't think that the way the standard is written makes it very easy for a newcomer to see how to apply it.

Agree - although one could argue that about a lot of things. I certainly agree it takes time, effort, application & experience to understand & apply it. Which is why we have such, um, spirited debates in here at times.

As I say, don't worry about me...!

Whew, that's a relief - I'll sleep well tonight

 

[potdar]

Potdar:

If no one bought the 'Misra's Dharwar Peda', do you think the organization would try to learn what the customer wants (requires?) Does the fact that they sell out by noon every day tell them they have appropriately reviewed and determined the customer's requirements?

a) 7.2.3 c - customer feedback is very much applicable.

b) The product as defined in the scope is 'Misra's Dharwar Peda'. If the customer feedback shows that the customers dont buy, the system can be rectified if service issues are involved. If product is the issue, a new product needs to be introduced. thats a totally different take altogether. Beyond the scope of currently defined system I guess.

And I bet the product requirements (7.2.2a) are defiend for internal purposes so it can be repeated every day. I bet the patent includes a defintion of product requriements.

You bet they are. They are covered under 7.5.1 a and 7.5.2.

Even though 7.2.2 is under the general heading of 7.2 Customer-related processes, does that mean that the requriements in 7.2.2 must be done by the customer? Can 7.2.2a be done by the organization without the customer directly involved?

Regards,

Dirk

Thats exactly what I am asking you.

 

[Ajayqms]

Dear All,

Bleated Happy new Year to all.

In continuation I would like to bring another senario and question remains same, can we exclude 7.2.1 and 7.2.2.

Client is a software development company and working in India, They have a company is US, which is their parent company, and also acting as a customer to them.

The US is involved in marketing in US, and they will forward all the details of the customer requirement.

With this situation, we have a long discussion today with client in India and they say practically 7.2.1 and 7.2.2 is excluded.

Please help whether we can exclude this clause.

Regards to all.

Ajay

 

[Helmut Jilling]

Dear All,

Bleated Happy new Year to all.

In continuation I would like to bring another senario and question remains same, can we exclude 7.2.1 and 7.2.2.

Client is a software development company and working in India, They have a company is US, which is their parent company, and also acting as a customer to them.

The US is involved in marketing in US, and they will forward all the details of the customer requirement.

With this situation, we have a long discussion today with client in India and they say practically 7.2.1 and 7.2.2 is excluded.

Please help whether we can exclude this clause.

Regards to all.

Ajay

You don't exclude cl 7.2 entirely, because a site in India still has to receive and understand the customer's requirements. It is a linkage to the site in the US. The better approach is to apply it to the level that is approrpiate. If the linkage is clear and simple, then the procedure is pretty basic. if the interaction is more complex, then the procedure for it will go into a little more depth. Explain what it is and how it works. Implement and apply it to the appropriate degree.

 

[Ajayqms]

Thanks for your kind thoughts, but problem is that the company get the confirmed order and straight away start doing the development on the requirements, however requirement of 7.2.1 and 7.2.2 is to determin the information and review it before accepting the order, which this company is not doing, rather as I told earlier, they receive order and start development on SRS document supplied to them, any clarification required on this, they will contact the parent company, however this all is being done after the order is accepted.

Regards

Ajay

 

[Helmut Jilling]

Thanks for your kind thoughts, but problem is that the company get the confirmed order and straight away start doing the development on the requirements, however requirement of 7.2.1 and 7.2.2 is to determin the information and review it before accepting the order, which this company is not doing, rather as I told earlier, they receive order and start development on SRS document supplied to them, any clarification required on this, they will contact the parent company, however this all is being done after the order is accepted.

Regards

Ajay

That is what I explained in my reply. Even if you just "get the order and start developing," it applies, but you describe how much. You have to understand the order, and the requirements, and determine how they will be developed. there is some thinking that goes into the handoff. Perhaps even communication back and forth. The other thing, the 100 people back at the parent facility really should be considered part of the 7.2, 7.3 process.