External Audit - Nonconformance Root causes

[Sidney Vianna]

I remember this type of NC being raised in the late 1980s - it was B / S then and it is still B / S.)

It is disturbing to realize that the same non value added NC's are still being reported two decades later.

There should be a "death panel" for the career of auditors who don't understand how they should be adding value to stakeholders.

Let's create an independent bureau, responsible for reviewing all audit reports (including NC's) on an annual basis. Auditors who fail to demonstrate competence in providing useful feedback would be expelled from the system.

 

[Jim Wynne]

Thank you guys for your responses. It helped me alot. I think I will consider qusys suggestion. I cant do anything now but to close the NCR with root cause and corrective actions.

There is something that you can (and should) do--protest the NCs. I know there are times when management doesn't want to do this, but you really shouldn't allow CB auditors to get away with bogus NCs.

 

[qusys]

Thks, Yell.
I appreciated so much to have been of help as well.
reading again your post, I understood that they are minor non conformities.
Looking at them , I could be also curious to see the other ones...
Question: Was this the first audit of the Registrar or a surveillance audit?
Probably , to go in depth, if it was a recertification or confirmation, there were any similar observations or opportunities for improvement raised in the past and not followed up in constructive way.
It could be a rational to understand the consistent number of non conformities in the recent audit.
Pls, if you want , let us know.

Thank you guys for your responses. It helped me alot. I think I will consider qusys suggestion. I cant do anything now but to close the NCR with root cause and corrective actions.

Anyway, the first NCR is required in Clause 5.2 Standard. The second is under Clause 5.6.

Again thank you. Any additional suggestion is highly appreciated.

Thanks.

Yell

 

[shinyell]

Again, thank you guys for your responces. In regards to the Audit, we have a weird situation here. As I have said, this is a Recertification Audit but for the last 2 years, we did not conduct the 2 Surveillance Audit. I wasnt here at that time, but I learned that they did not got an Auditor for the Surveillance Audit. That means, our last Audit Report was on 2006.

Previously, our Management Representative was one of the General Manager in our Company. Due to his busy schedule, he could not performed his job correctly. So his responsibilities was submitted to each department, just like dealing with the Customer Complaints. Each department are responsible for updating thier Complaint Log (some of the Complaints was not forwarded to the Top Management). There was no Customer Complaint Log for the whole company, no NCR Log, no Change Request Log and many more. For short, no system. Everyone was performing thier daily job and do what they can do. Now, its me who will be trying to collect every files from there to here.

Eventhough its a bit chaotic, our staff is still helping to collect the files I need. But the year is ending fast and we need the re-certification Audit this year. I was hired to find a system and maintain all the copies of QMS Documents. We start on revising the procedures and forms. Conducting the Internal Audits, MRM and closing the Internal NCR's. Sadly the time was short. We got the schedule for the external audit. I couldnt close some internal NCR's and my MRM presentation was not yet done.

That is the reason why we got this minor NCR's. I can say, it not really not a big issue but it is an NCR that need to be close.

If there are some who has the same situation like me. Please let me know. That will give me a feeling not to be more disperate.

Thank you.

 

[qusys]

Probably this period of econimical downturn is carrying to a less attention to the topics of Quality in general.
I think that just in this difficult situation, Quality standards help more and more to find the right path.
The secret should be that the Quality system works for you and not viceversa...Step by step, this should be reached by the organizations that find value in ISO standards. Your situation has some communality with others, surely, but in other cases the things got worse.
Pls, keep me informed and glad to be helfull.

Again, thank you guys for your responces. In regards to the Audit, we have a weird situation here. As I have said, this is a Recertification Audit but for the last 2 years, we did not conduct the 2 Surveillance Audit. I wasnt here at that time, but I learned that they did not got an Auditor for the Surveillance Audit. That means, our last Audit Report was on 2006.

Previously, our Management Representative was one of the General Manager in our Company. Due to his busy schedule, he could not performed his job correctly. So his responsibilities was submitted to each department, just like dealing with the Customer Complaints. Each department are responsible for updating thier Complaint Log (some of the Complaints was not forwarded to the Top Management). There was no Customer Complaint Log for the whole company, no NCR Log, no Change Request Log and many more. For short, no system. Everyone was performing thier daily job and do what they can do. Now, its me who will be trying to collect every files from there to here.

Eventhough its a bit chaotic, our staff is still helping to collect the files I need. But the year is ending fast and we need the re-certification Audit this year. I was hired to find a system and maintain all the copies of QMS Documents. We start on revising the procedures and forms. Conducting the Internal Audits, MRM and closing the Internal NCR's. Sadly the time was short. We got the schedule for the external audit. I couldnt close some internal NCR's and my MRM presentation was not yet done.

That is the reason why we got this minor NCR's. I can say, it not really not a big issue but it is an NCR that need to be close.

If there are some who has the same situation like me. Please let me know. That will give me a feeling not to be more disperate.

Thank you.

 

[Claes Gefvenberg]

There is no requirement in ISO 9001 that you inculde a commitment to comply with ISO 9001 in your policy statement - no nonconformity. I remember this type of NC being raised in the late 1980s - it was B / S then and it is still B / S.

No, it isn't. Listen to Paul's advice.

I agree with both of the above. There is nothing wrong with including it in the policy, but definitely not a requirement and most certainly not a value adding NC.

Again, thank you guys for your responces. In regards to the Audit, we have a weird situation here. As I have said, this is a Recertification Audit but for the last 2 years, we did not conduct the 2 Surveillance Audit. I wasnt here at that time, but I learned that they did not got an Auditor for the Surveillance Audit. That means, our last Audit Report was on 2006.

What? :mg: To make certain I got that right: Do you mean that the company you hired to certify your QMS simply skirted their audit of said system for two years running? If so, I am not impressed. What are you paying them for anyway?

Again not an N/C. To be fair you should have said right from the start that your presentation was a work in prgress and that you were planning to add complaints and feedback.

Once more, I agree: A reasonable auditor may have given you a slight nudge towards finishing the presentation.

/Claes

 

[Sidney Vianna]

What are you paying them for anyway?

Apparently to keep a certificate which should have been revoked, for the failure of the CB in conducting surveillance audits.

 

[Hodgepodge]

There is something that you can (and should) do--protest the NCs. I know there are times when management doesn't want to do this, but you really shouldn't allow CB auditors to get away with bogus NCs.

Without knowing if the OP has a Policy Manual or Procedure/Instruction that specifically delineates requirements that haven’t been met, how can we know if there should be an NC? If they say they will do it, they should be doing it.


Shinyell, do your internal procedures stipulate that you have MRM minutes recorded and formally documented within a specific timeframe? If they do and you are late, then the NC is legit. If there is no requirement for the formal "typed up" minutes, then notes by you and other MRM participants should suffice as evidence. Then again, if you don't have any notes, it may seem like any MRM minutes you would document at this late date woud be made up. That ought to be a red flag for auditing.

Even though it's a bit chaotic, our staff is still helping to collect the files I need. But the year is ending fast and we need the re-certification Audit this year. I was hired to find a system and maintain all the copies of QMS Documents. We start on revising the procedures and forms. Conducting the Internal Audits, MRM and closing the Internal NCR's. Sadly the time was short. We got the schedule for the external audit. I couldn't close some internal NCR's and my MRM presentation was not yet done.

That is the reason why we got this minor NCR's. I can say, it's not really not a big issue but it is an NCR that needs to be closed.

If there are some who has the same situation like me. Please let me know. That will give me a feeling not to be more desperate.

I am asking because you are implying that you will continue with resolving these issues as NCs even though several of the Cove’s top posters are saying these NCs are bogus.

The bolded items in your quote above make me think that your company is merely performing these items just to satisfy the CB auditor. If this is the case, I would imagine your auditor might come to the same conclusion. If this is the case, your root cause is lack of management commitment. The corrective action, perhaps, could be that they hired you to lead the way to implementing an effective quality program and “refresh” the company’s culture of quality.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Without knowing if the OP has a Policy Manual or Procedure/Instruction that specifically delineates requirements that haven’t been met, how can we know if there should be an NC? If they say they will do it, they should be doing it.

While that is true, if it were the case, the CB auditor should have cited the requirement source and neither the OP nor us would be left wondering which requirement is(?) being violated.

 

[Jim Wynne]

Without knowing if the OP has a Policy Manual or Procedure/Instruction that specifically delineates requirements that haven’t been met, how can we know if there should be an NC? If they say they will do it, they should be doing it.

The OP indicated that the first NC was due to no reference to ISO 9001:2008 in the quality policy. I would be very surprised if the OP's company had their own documented requirements for such a reference. As far as the second one is concerned, here's what the OP said:
MRM does not include information related to the Customer Feedback & Process Performance. With bold in the original. The OP went on to state that the customer feedback, etc. was discussed in an MR meeting, but the discussion wasn't included in the meeting minutes. Thus the finding (if correctly quoted) is wrong. If the auditor had said that there was no evidence that it had been discussed, and referenced the requirement in the standard he might have had a point.