External Audit - Nonconformance Root causes

[Paul Simpson]

It is disturbing to realize that the same non value added NC's are still being reported two decades later.

There should be a "death panel" for the career of auditors who don't understand how they should be adding value to stakeholders.

Let's create an independent bureau, responsible for reviewing all audit reports (including NC's) on an annual basis. Auditors who fail to demonstrate competence in providing useful feedback would be expelled from the system.

Wasn't there a 'Three strikes and you're out' law in the US a while back and we hear of people in jail for life now for stealing a slice of pizza - dodgy audit n/cs are far more corrosive to the prosperity of each of us. Think about all the hours spent going through the 'correction, corrective action, root cause analysis, action to prevent recurrence' cycle.

Not to mention the time spent here in the cove discussing it. But at least, your honour, it is my time and I'm doing this for fun!

 

[Paul Simpson]

Again, thank you guys for your responces. In regards to the Audit, we have a weird situation here. As I have said, this is a Recertification Audit but for the last 2 years, we did not conduct the 2 Surveillance Audit. I wasnt here at that time, but I learned that they did not got an Auditor for the Surveillance Audit. That means, our last Audit Report was on 2006.

:mg:

Previously, our Management Representative was one of the General Manager in our Company. Due to his busy schedule, he could not performed his job correctly. So his responsibilities was submitted to each department, just like dealing with the Customer Complaints. Each department are responsible for updating thier Complaint Log (some of the Complaints was not forwarded to the Top Management). There was no Customer Complaint Log for the whole company, no NCR Log, no Change Request Log and many more. For short, no system. Everyone was performing thier daily job and do what they can do. Now, its me who will be trying to collect every files from there to here.

Eventhough its a bit chaotic, our staff is still helping to collect the files I need. But the year is ending fast and we need the re-certification Audit this year. I was hired to find a system and maintain all the copies of QMS Documents. We start on revising the procedures and forms. Conducting the Internal Audits, MRM and closing the Internal NCR's. Sadly the time was short. We got the schedule for the external audit. I couldnt close some internal NCR's and my MRM presentation was not yet done.

That is the reason why we got this minor NCR's. I can say, it not really not a big issue but it is an NCR that need to be close.

If there are some who has the same situation like me. Please let me know. That will give me a feeling not to be more disperate.

Thank you.

My friend you have my undying admiration for your optimism in the face of such a blatant disregard for quality and the principles that underpin ISO 9001 ... and I haven't even started on your so called certification body yet!

 

[Hodgepodge]

The OP indicated that the first NC was due to no reference to ISO 9001:2008 in the quality policy. I would be very surprised if the OP's company had their own documented requirements for such a reference.

Probably right!

The OP went on to state that the customer feedback, etc. was discussed in an MR meeting, but the discussion wasn't included in the meeting minutes.

So…no information was included relating to the 2 topics mentioned. Or, in your wording, “there was no evidence that it had been discussed”. This no evidence seems to indicate the lack of notes by the attendees regarding the required items. These two ways of stating nonconformance seem the same to me. Aren’t they? Section 5.6.2 requires review of information on:
b) customer feedback,
c) process performance and product conformity, ​

In an earlier post, Paul Simpson says:

if the latest meeting hadn't happened then there isn't any evidence.

If this were the case, I would agree. I don’t read it this way. After reading the thread again, it seems to me the finding was on a MRM that had already happened. However, a “presentation” hadn’t been finalized. If there was no evidence that it had been discussed or the information was not included in minutes of a meeting that already happened, then there is an NC. Perhaps, as Paul says, some leeway could have been given due to WIP, but it is what it is. Just because the CB has shown incompetence, or down right uselessness, doesn't mean this isn't an NC.​

 

[Paul Simpson]

Thanks, hodgepodge. I did try to cover all the bases, particularly with:

The auditor can raise the fact that the previous MRM did not cover some element of 5.6.2 but not of a future meeting.