External Documents - How to control? NC over letter from registrar about use of logo

M

michelle8075

#11
Cari Spears said:
I figured that's who it was because I've never heard of any other registrar giving a n/c for this. I figure they must have been given enough grief about requiring a procedure that now they are *trying* to write it up against control of external documents. It's still crap.

I go on about that one auditor alot in various threads because her findings were so ridiculous. I think Rob Nix's reference to controlling the metric conversion chart was me - she did indeed write a n/c for document control because of charts hanging in the tool crib and we also had a "hot job list" in the production supervisor's office which was a large dry erase board that was changed almost daily - yes, she wanted that "controlled"; she also wrote a n/c because we did not calibrate our tape measures and steel rules :rolleyes: and a couple more that were just as silly.

I contacted our account manager and said "I'm providing corrective action for n/c numbers X,Y & Z, but I do not concur with n/c numbers A, B & C and here's why. And - by the way, this write up for a procedure for the use of your logo - when we don't use it - is crap, but I'm going to write a paragraph to make it go away because every one of your auditors is going to come in here and write this up and I don't want to argue over it during every audit.

I wish I would have thought of pointing out the use of the word "relevant" in the standard and told them to keep it unless I requested it - but like I said - I was so busy building my case against so many of her n/c's that I let that one go.
There are other write ups from this audit that were OFI's, but still as ridiculous as this one. Like, "Continuous improvement process needs Root Cause investigation. I was like "HELLO?" I cannot even go any further with this one because it hurts my head. :bonk: Oh, and this is the same registrar who tried to tell them that they needed a procedure for certifying gage fixtures. I went completely nuts on that one, they are a PAINT manufacturer. I could go on and on.

But you make an excellent point, it is the word "relevant" that you have to understand and apply while auditing the standard. It just seems that they were writing up stuff because they did not find any Noncompliances, so they opened up their "book of useless Noncompliances" and picked one.

I have tried to get my friend to change registrars, but the owner of the company does not want to. But hey, some people have had really good luck with them. In fact, their first registration audit I thought went excellent. The auditor was different too. But he provided some very good observations, and some minors that were truly minors....

Anyway, I helped to get the system up for my friend and reviewed it before and did a Gap analysis so of course it is virtually flawless :lol:... right....
 
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Cari Spears

Super Moderator
Staff member
Super Moderator
#12
Rob Nix said:
ISO-9004 clarifies it a little with the statement "external sources of information relevant for the development of the organization's competencies". What you don't do is not relevant. Refuse it. Go up the food chain and challenge it.
Rob originally made that excellent point. :D
 
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Cari Spears

Super Moderator
Staff member
Super Moderator
#14
michelle8075 said:
I have tried to get my friend to change registrars, but the owner of the company does not want to. But hey, some people have had really good luck with them. In fact, their first registration audit I thought went excellent. The auditor was different too. But he provided some very good observations, and some minors that were truly minors....
They do not assign your account to one auditor like some registrars do - they have something like a "pool" of auditors and whoever is available when you're scheduled gets sent. In the three years (1 day twice a year) that I dealt with PJR, I never saw the same auditor twice. I was also not displeased with any other auditor they sent.
 
M

michelle8075

#15
Cari Spears said:
Rob originally made that excellent point. :D
Oops! :eek: well thanks for your honesty, and thanks Rob for making that excellent point.

On a different point, the company that I currently work for now has an excellent registrar, and the auditor that they sent to us is great. Because he has been here for almost 4 years now, be really knows where are weak points are and our strong points. He has identified many areas for us to improve. I think that having the same auditor is a good thing for our company because of our "special" nature of having foriegn management he seems to understand the culture.

As far as the PJR thing of switching all the time.... well I don't feel that is effective. For example, say my friend changes everything to suit this "not so good" auditor in my opinion finding, she is then going to have a good auditor coming in, tearing the changes apart (rightfully so). It will never end. :nopity:
 
Z

zzz123

#16
I could use some clarification on "to ensure tha docs of external origin are identified and their distribution controlled". Please explain to me what specifically "distribution controlled" means. Currently everything that is controlled is stamped with a controlled stamp and entered in a log showing its location.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#17
zzz123 said:
Currently everything that is controlled is stamped with a controlled stamp and entered in a log showing its location.
In addition to controlling locations, you also need to be able to show that only the current versions are in use, and that you have a process for verifying that.
 
S

sardonyx

#18
Nice thread!

This thread is very relevant to what I was looking for. And I learned a lot from your experiences; hopefully I can manage that when audit comes. So do you have any sample procedure that includes external document which may avoid non-conformance (definitely this will fall under control of document procedure)? Or maybe what are the "best words to use" to describe external documents that are safe for auditors? And at the same time not too much work for us? :confused:
 
Z

zzz123

#19
Previously it was implied that things like supplier and customer correspondence also needs to be controlled. I am not sure how this is done because of correspondence coming to us in a variety of ways, (e-mails, letter, fax) and to a variety of people. Is there some language that can cover this without turning it into a document control nightmare.
 
R

Randy Stewart

#20
Here's my 2 cents, for what it's worth. Be careful how much you "control" and what you "control". I define a controlled document as -- an issued/published document where the user is notified of all changes.
Most customer documentation is issued but it is user beware. We designate an owner of the document (ie engineering manager for engineering changes) and they are responsible for verification.
 
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