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External Parties performing Internal Audits? TS 16949 Clause 8.2.2

D

dbzman

#1
How do you interpret 8.2.2 to mean that an external party cannot (or can) perform Internal Audits?

What is the definition of an internal Audit?

Can outside parties perform and Internal Audit?

:bonk:
 
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Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#2
Re: External Parties performing Internal Audits?

Outsourcing of internal audits is definitely allowed. We have discussed this subject numerous times.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#3
How do you interpret 8.2.2 to mean that an external party cannot (or can) perform Internal Audits?

What is the definition of an internal Audit?

Can outside parties perform and Internal Audit?

:bonk:
I agree with Sidney. It is fairly common. Smaller firms often use external auditors due to limited resources. Larger companies sometimes do it to get a more thorough audit, or to supplement internal efforts. Some companies use external professionals to audit problem suppliers and help them develop and improve.
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#4
The internal describes the purpose not the performer

ISO 9000:2005 said:
3.9.1
audit
systematic, independent and documented process (3.4.1) for obtaining audit evidence (3.9.4) and evaluating it objectively to determine the extent to which audit criteria (3.9.3) are fulfilled

NOTE 1 Internal audits, sometimes called first-party audits, are conducted by, or on behalf of, the organization (3.3.1) itself for management review and other internal purposes, and may form the basis for an organization’s declaration of conformity (3.6.1). In many cases, particularly in smaller organizations, independence can be demonstrated by the freedom from responsibility for the activity being audited.
 

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#5
How do you interpret 8.2.2 to mean that an external party cannot (or can) perform Internal Audits?

What is the definition of an internal Audit?

Can outside parties perform and Internal Audit?

:bonk:
Yes, outside parties can perform internal audit as the other Cover said.
No requirement mention the contrary. However, decision making , analysis of results and input to the management review reside on the organization.
 
D

dbzman

#6
Just as I thought. Someone on Linkedin had stated that their 3rd party auditor would not accept outside auditors performing internal audits.

Probably had an issue with the word “internal”.

Thanks!

:agree1:
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#7
Just as I thought. Someone on Linkedin had stated that their 3rd party auditor would not accept outside auditors performing internal audits.

Probably had an issue with the word “internal”.

Thanks!

:agree1:
As an auditor the my horror is "our auditor said". Ask where it says so, please.
Any one can say but not everyone can justify.
 
D

dbzman

#8
The 3rd party used 8.2.2 to issue the minor. Seems like a confused auditor to me.

Do we really have this type of inexperienced 3rd party auditor out there performing audits?
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#9
The 3rd party used 8.2.2 to issue the minor. Seems like a confused auditor to me.

Do we really have this type of inexperienced 3rd party auditor out there performing audits?
You would be surprised! :mg:

Not all doom and gloom though...I know many outstanding 3rd Party auditors who really know their stuff!

I must say though that many managers do not take the time to study the requirements, Standards, Customer CSR's, etc., so in that case, they are not able to question off-base or incorrect statements by a less competent 3rd Party auditor.

Stijloor.
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#10
I must say though that many managers do not take the time to study the requirements, Standards, Customer CSR's, etc., so in that case, they are not able to question off-base or incorrect statements by a less competent 3rd Party auditor.

Stijloor.
This is why I always show the auditee the requirement in the standard.
After this there is no problem and it helps protect my customer against another auditor
 
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