FAI (First Article Inspection) and Key Characteristics Requirements - AS9100

S

Sohail

#1
Following scenario developed during audit of AS 9100 Rev B

1. Auditor Comments :

Key characteristics are not identified in the system.

Auditee Answer :

Customer has not identified any KC requirement in the criteria provided by them. All drawings contain general tolerances and no critical dimensions are there. Main adjustments of the product are made outside the organization as on many products we only do rough machining.

Solution :

1. Major NC, 2. Minor NC 3. Observation 4. Nothing 5. Needs more info.


2. Auditor Comments :

First article inspection is not done in the assembly section.
First article inspection is done on the product and not on the machine which makes the product as required by the standard.

Auditee Answer :

We do not do the final inspection. It is outsourced to other organization. We have done FAI on machine by producing a product on it and inspecting the product in order to verify the working of the machine.

Solution :

1. Major NC, 2. Minor NC 3. Observation 4. Nothing 5. Needs more info.

3. Auditor Comments :

Welding process is not declared as special process and its controls are not identified. Di penitrant tests only identifies the external cracks. Internal cracks goes un reported.

Auditee Comments :

We do DP test on 100 percent welded parts. Customer is happy and so are we. No problems. Why to implement special process clause then?

Solution :

1. Major NC, 2. Minor NC 3. Observation 4. Nothing 5. Needs more info.
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

Stijloor

Leader
Super Moderator
#2
Following scenario developed during audit of AS 9100 Rev B

1. Auditor Comments :

Key characteristics are not identified in the system.

Auditee Answer :

Customer has not identified any KC requirement in the criteria provided by them. All drawings contain general tolerances and no critical dimensions are there. Main adjustments of the product are made outside the organization as on many products we only do rough machining.

Solution :

1. Major NC, 2. Minor NC 3. Observation 4. Nothing 5. Needs more info.


2. Auditor Comments :

First article inspection is not done in the assembly section.
First article inspection is done on the product and not on the machine which makes the product as required by the standard.

Auditee Answer :

We do not do the final inspection. It is outsourced to other organization. We have done FAI on machine by producing a product on it and inspecting the product in order to verify the working of the machine.

Solution :

1. Major NC, 2. Minor NC 3. Observation 4. Nothing 5. Needs more info.

3. Auditor Comments :

Welding process is not declared as special process and its controls are not identified. Di penitrant tests only identifies the external cracks. Internal cracks goes un reported.

Auditee Comments :

We do DP test on 100 percent welded parts. Customer is happy and so are we. No problems. Why to implement special process clause then?

Solution :

1. Major NC, 2. Minor NC 3. Observation 4. Nothing 5. Needs more info.
Comments?

Stijloor.
 
#3
Following scenario developed during audit of AS 9100 Rev B

1. Auditor Comments :

Key characteristics are not identified in the system.

Auditee Answer :

Customer has not identified any KC requirement in the criteria provided by them. All drawings contain general tolerances and no critical dimensions are there. Main adjustments of the product are made outside the organization as on many products we only do rough machining.

Solution :

1. Major NC, 2. Minor NC 3. Observation 4. Nothing 5. Needs more info.


2. Auditor Comments :

First article inspection is not done in the assembly section.
First article inspection is done on the product and not on the machine which makes the product as required by the standard.

Auditee Answer :

We do not do the final inspection. It is outsourced to other organization. We have done FAI on machine by producing a product on it and inspecting the product in order to verify the working of the machine.

Solution :

1. Major NC, 2. Minor NC 3. Observation 4. Nothing 5. Needs more info.

3. Auditor Comments :

Welding process is not declared as special process and its controls are not identified. Di penitrant tests only identifies the external cracks. Internal cracks goes un reported.

Auditee Comments :

We do DP test on 100 percent welded parts. Customer is happy and so are we. No problems. Why to implement special process clause then?

Solution :

1. Major NC, 2. Minor NC 3. Observation 4. Nothing 5. Needs more info.

Item 1 -- It is my understanding that if the customer does not identify key characteristics that you are not required to do so. I invite others to comment. As a practical matter, it would be unwise to ignore any obvious ones though.

Item 2 -- I'm not sure I understand your scenario. First article is done on the part, and one of the purposes for performing first article can be to validate the production equipment and processes. If you are inspecting to confirm the equipment is performing properly, you might be doing most of the first article inspection already. Why are you farming it out?

Item 3 -- What needs to be done to validate welding is one of those "it depends" situations. You really cannot tell the quality of a weld from nondestructive testing only. To be really sure of the quality of a weld, usually some sort of destructive testing validation is needed. More information is needed. Has the customer specified the dye penetrate method in their documentation? Having a welder certified is one method (a common one), and certifying the welder usually includes destructive testing of samples of his welding.

I invite additional comments on any of this.
 
S

Sohail

#4
1 )The customer may not know what are the critical parameters that should be controlled during the product realziation process in order to get the conforming product, especially an aerospace product with zero risk of error, i.e. plane parts. So organization working in AS env. must identify and control those critical parameters. (Shouldnt be?)

2) You understood my point well. But FAI on equipment may be the responsibility of the equipment manufacturer because it is his product. The point is, does one time FAI on equipment by producing and inspecting any prototype, absolve the organzation to do FAI on any other newly designed product produced by the same equipment?, since the equipement has already passed the FAI?

3) The customer hasnt identified any test for inspection of the weld. There are no other inspections/tests to check the weld, just the DP test and this is the addtional task which the org does when the customer doesnt require it. In this case shouldnt the welding process be declared as special process, atleast?
 
#5
1 )The customer may not know what are the critical parameters that should be controlled during the product realziation process in order to get the conforming product, especially an aerospace product with zero risk of error, i.e. plane parts. So organization working in AS env. must identify and control those critical parameters. (Shouldnt be?)

2) You understood my point well. But FAI on equipment may be the responsibility of the equipment manufacturer because it is his product. The point is, does one time FAI on equipment by producing and inspecting any prototype, absolve the organzation to do FAI on any other newly designed product produced by the same equipment?, since the equipement has already passed the FAI?

3) The customer hasnt identified any test for inspection of the weld. There are no other inspections/tests to check the weld, just the DP test and this is the addtional task which the org does when the customer doesnt require it. In this case shouldnt the welding process be declared as special process, atleast?
1. As I said before, it is my understanding that if the customer has not identified key characteristics, you do not need to. I invite others to comment.

2. FAI on equipment? Absolved from FAI on future product made with that equipment? I think you are confused.

"8.2.4.2 First Article Inspection: The organization's system shall provide a process for the inspection, verification, and documentation of a representative item from the first production run of a new part, or following any subsequent changes that invalidates the previous first article inspection result."

I don't see anything there about FAI on equipment there.

The standard is clear. You perform FAI on an item from the first production run. That would be on a part, not the equipment. It is the part that passed the FAI, not the equipment.

You may be trying to apply 7.5.1.3, but I don't think you are applying it properly.

"7.5.1.3 Control of Production Equipment, Tools and Numerical Control (NC) Machine Programs: Production equipment, tools and programs shall be validated prior to use and maintained and inspected periodically according to documented procedures. Validation prior to production use shall include verification of the first article produced to the design data/specification."

I don't see where the equipment manufacturer has FAI responsibility. It is the organization that is required to verify the first article produced with the equipment, not the equipment manufacturer.

3. Welding is almost always a "special process". Nondestructive tests by themselves do not usually provide adequate validation of the quality of the weld. It would be easy for me to provide a weld sample that would pass NDT but still not have proper penetration. NDT along with samples that were destructively tested probably would.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Leader
Admin
#6
1. As I said before, it is my understanding that if the customer has not identified key characteristics, you do not need to. I invite others to comment.
Key characteristics (see definition) and critical items (AS9100C 3.3) might be identified by the suppliers themselves, specially as it relates to manufacturability and producibility issues, in terms of variation reduction. For example, a supplier might be aware that only one of their grinding machines is capable of consistently delivering a very tight tolerance. So, as part of the process control for that grinding step, the router could state that specific machine to be used for grinding that dimension. The customer might not be aware of that issue, but the supplier is.
 
S

Sohail

#7
1.

"I don't see anything there about FAI on equipment there.

The standard is clear. You perform FAI on an item from the first production run. That would be on a part, not the equipment. It is the part that passed the FAI, not the equipment."

1) Sydney, that's what I want to say. If the customer isn't aware of the KC in the product R process and the organization does, so organization must identify them.

2) BJ, No I am not confused. Thats exactly what I need to hear and that's the point I need to defend. If you go to my first or second posting, I have the same opinion.

3) Agreed with BJ.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
B

Blue Screw

#8
Chalk this entire question up to Junk in, Junk out
It seems that the outputs are the result of your inputs.

You will always have characteristics, even on the simplest product.
report on all of them within the FAI.
The machine does not verify the product, ever. - The FAI proves the capability of the machine to make a conforming product. This will verify the NC programming.

The last part deals with the inspection. What does the print say? does it require further inspection other than penetrant?
If so, then the finding is correct. If there is no requirement on the drawing or specification, sow etc, then you are clear. You have done what is asked of you and proved it. no finding.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
K First Article Inspection (FAI) - Equipment used - Dimensions vs. Go/No-Go ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 7
C Is a First Article Inspection (FAI) Procedure required by ISO 13485? ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 3
M FAI AS9102 - What does a First Article Inspection cover? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 11
U Whether First Article Inspection Report- FAI is mandatory for regular Human Factors and Ergonomics in Engineering 4
R AS9100 FAI - First Article Inspection to a prior Customers PO AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 7
G FAI (First Article Inspection) Responsibility - QC or Engineering? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 3
R FAI (First Article Inspection) on source-controlled parts AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 5
K FAI (First Article Inspection) vs PPAP (Production Part Approval Process) APQP and PPAP 15
T FAI (First Article Inspection) of Large Assemblies/Tooling after move to new building AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 12
Q FAI IAW AS9102 - First Article Inspection Documentation Question AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 20
D AS9102 B (FAI - First Article Inspection) is Released - October 2014 AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 12
A AS9102 First Article Inspection and NC Parts - New FAI? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 5
D Delta or Partial FAI (First Article Inspection) - What are the differences? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 3
K FAI (First Article Inspection) using Digital Design Data AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 7
G What is meant by FAI (First Article Inspection) and how do we comply? AS9102 AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 26
C Inexperienced Mechanical Inspectors and FAI's (First Article Inspection) Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 1
L FAI (First Article Inspection) of Prototype Parts AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 11
S FAI (First Article Inspection) during Assembly of Sub-Assemblies Only AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 4
F Can you reference original FAI (First Article Inspection) after Delta? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 3
R FAI (First Article Inspection) Report Number Method AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 8
Z AS9102 FAI (First Article Inspection) - Is a Ballooned Drawing Required? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 11
H FAI (First Article Inspection) Software Recommendations and Help Quality Tools, Improvement and Analysis 11
B AS9102 FAI (First Article Inspection) per standard or contract? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 6
L Selling Products Produced before First Article Inspection (FAI) Approval AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 2
E Understanding terminology for FAI (First Article Inspection) AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 6
T FAI (First Article Inspection) - How many parts are measured AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 2
J AS9102 FAI (First Article Inspection) Full or Partial - Changes to NC programming Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 3
J FAI (First Article Inspection) Do as I say not as I do AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 8
P Design Characteristics of the FAI (First Article Inspection) AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 5
P First Article Inspection - FAI for every new product launch AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 5
K Incoming Materials First Article Inspection (FAI) Procedure needed Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 2
T First Article Inspection - Is FAI Design Verification? Design and Development of Products and Processes 3
M Measure "TYP" dimensions on a first article inspection (FAI) report? ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 10
I FAI (First Article Inspection) for Bulletproof Glass normally for Autos? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 10
I FAI (First Article Inspection) for Chemical companies AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 2
M Help needed with brilliantly engineered FAI (First Article Inspection) form 3 AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 9
I FAI (First Article Inspection) per AS9102A include gen. notes on form 3? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 5
gard2372 Our Parent company is our supplier? FAI (First Article Inspection) not required? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 3
B FAI (First Article Inspection) per AS9102 Form 2, sections 5 & 6 question Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 10
T AS9102 FAI (First Article Inspection) Form example Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 35
A AS9100 Clause 8.2.4.2 - First Article Inspection (FAI) - How do you comply? Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 10
M First Article Acceptance FAI Letter and related Letters of Approval Supplier Quality Assurance and other Supplier Issues 10
A First Article planning - Is an FAI timeline for the product the same thing? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 5
L FAI Charge General Auditing Discussions 3
D "FAI" Requirements/Process for New Supplier Materials Design and Development of Products and Processes 3
H FAI Requirement After Moving CNC Machine? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 15
DuncanGibbons Pre FAI production terminology AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 4
NDesouza Is my Partial FAI an Assembly or Detail? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 3
R FAI & P.O. Requirements AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 21
M Weld Symbol--Bubble Drawings for FAI Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 4

Similar threads

Top Bottom