FAI (First Article Inspection) for Bulletproof Glass normally for Autos?

I

inuyasha

#1
Hi! My company produces bullet-proof glasses for cars and recently one of our customers asked us to be prepared for a FAI next month... and I'm really scared because I know nothing about it!
On the contract the client says that "FAI shall be conducted in accordance with SAE AS9102 [...]. When documenting the FAI, the supplier may use the forms contained within AS9102 or equivalent form so long as they contain the minimum information required by AS9102."
We are certified ISO9001 and, as I already mentioned, we DO not produce aerospacial products.
Why is my client asking me for this?
I downloaded the forms examples from this site, but I haven't seen something like that before: somebody can please tell me how to fill them? Which is the meaning of each field in the forms? :truce:
Thank you!
dani
 
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Coury Ferguson

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Trusted Information Resource
#2
Re: First Article Applicability - All parts produced or just the Aerospace parts?

Hi! My company produces bullet-proof glasses for cars and recently one of our customers asked us to be prepared for a FAI next month... and I'm really scared because I know nothing about it!
On the contract the client says that "FAI shall be conducted in accordance with SAE AS9102 [...]. When documenting the FAI, the supplier may use the forms contained within AS9102 or equivalent form so long as they contain the minimum information required by AS9102."
We are certified ISO9001 and, as I already mentioned, we DO not produce aerospacial products.
Why is my client asking me for this?
I downloaded the forms examples from this site, but I haven't seen something like that before: somebody can please tell me how to fill them? Which is the meaning of each field in the forms? :truce:
Thank you!
dani
It is Friday, and most people are either home or going home from work. I am sure there will be some responses on Monday.
 

Wes Bucey

Prophet of Profit
#3
Re: First Article Applicability - All parts produced or just the Aerospace parts?

Hi! My company produces bullet-proof glasses for cars and recently one of our customers asked us to be prepared for a FAI next month... and I'm really scared because I know nothing about it!
On the contract the client says that "FAI shall be conducted in accordance with SAE AS9102 [...]. When documenting the FAI, the supplier may use the forms contained within AS9102 or equivalent form so long as they contain the minimum information required by AS9102."
We are certified ISO9001 and, as I already mentioned, we DO not produce aerospacial products.
Why is my client asking me for this?
I downloaded the forms examples from this site, but I haven't seen something like that before: somebody can please tell me how to fill them? Which is the meaning of each field in the forms? :truce:
Thank you!
dani
First - do NOT panic!
Customers often have a "one size fits all" mentality. This means they will require a bunch of bureaucratic red tape on everything, whether it is necessary or not for the form, fit, and function of the intended use.

Regardless, the first and ultimate answer on this question of yours must come from the customer who has requested an FAI. The first thing we need to sort out is if this customer is a regular or a first-time customer. If it is a regular customer who has bought other goods from you in the past, you need to ask the customer directly, "What is so special about this order that you now require us to complete First Article Inspection forms?"

If it is a brand new customer who has never ordered from you before, you need to ask a similar question in a slightly different form, "We do not normally provide products for the aerospace industry. Are these products you ordered for use in aerospace? If not, why are you asking us to complete aerospace industry inspection forms?"

It just may be the customer is the type I described above ("Customers often have a "one size fits all" mentality.") Whether or not this is so, or the FAI truly is necessary for the intended end use of the product, your bosses may need to charge an extra "service fee" to cover the cost of time in researching and performing the inspections.

If the conversation with the customer determines the FAI is necessary and they are willing to pay the service fee for performing it, then you simply need to do it.

Performing an FAI using the AS9102 forms is pretty straightforward. Even so, you need to coordinate with the customer what he requires in the way of characteristics to be measured. This can be easy if the purchase order spells everything out. If not, you need to consult with the customer to determine whether you need to start from scratch with the raw materials or merely with the finished product. None of us will be able to read your customer's mind - that's why you have to ask him!

We do have copies of the three forms ready to download and fill out as attachments in this post (AS9102 FAI forms), courtesy of long-time member Cari Spears.

Form 1 is for assemblies
Form 2 is for the raw material
Form 3 is for the finished component

If it becomes necessary to complete one or all such forms after conversation with your customer, we are ready to help you by answering any specific questions you may have as you go through the FAI process. I stress there is little incentive to complete these forms until AFTER you have discussed the matter with the customer and agreed on an extra fee if your bosses decide such a fee is justified.

:topic:Congratulations on your first post in the Cove!:applause: I see you've been registered for a relatively long time. Now that you've broken the ice, why not add some personal information to the longest thread in the Cove?
New Folks - Please Take a Minute and Introduce Yourself / Say Hello!

Added in edit:
I've stripped these posts out of a longer thread so we can focus on the specific question.
 
Last edited:

harry

Trusted Information Resource
#4
Re: FAI for bulletproof glass normally for autos?

Welcome Inuyasha,

This is interesting. Unless your company claimed that your products are good for aerospace, what the customers intend to do with your product (outside regular usage endorsed by your company) is none of your business. If they want to use your product for aerospace, it is their job to arrange all the necessary testing to first satisfy themselves before even proposed it for use. This is how I look at this issue.

You also mentioned a contract - if your company is interested in the project, then things are different. But please be very, very careful with the 'contract review'.
 

Jim Wynne

Leader
Admin
#5
Re: FAI for bulletproof glass normally for autos?

Hi! My company produces bullet-proof glasses for cars and recently one of our customers asked us to be prepared for a FAI next month... and I'm really scared because I know nothing about it!
On the contract the client says that "FAI shall be conducted in accordance with SAE AS9102 [...]. When documenting the FAI, the supplier may use the forms contained within AS9102 or equivalent form so long as they contain the minimum information required by AS9102."
We are certified ISO9001 and, as I already mentioned, we DO not produce aerospacial products.
Why is my client asking me for this?
I downloaded the forms examples from this site, but I haven't seen something like that before: somebody can please tell me how to fill them? Which is the meaning of each field in the forms? :truce:
Thank you!
dani
Given the application for the product in question, it's not surprising that the customer would want thorough validation and testing. My guess is that your (potential?) customer has chosen a preexisting documentation and testing scheme that meets their needs rather than designing something from scratch, which is good Lean practice. It's not unusual, for example, for companies to use the AIAG PPAP methods even though they're not doing automotive work.

You don't say whether this is a contract that's already been accepted or not, but you'll need to let your customer know that you're not experienced in aerospace work and will need some guidance in fulfilling the requirements. If this is still in the contract review stage, your company's quotation should account for the extra time and money required to fulfill the requirements. In my experience, because this is something that your company doesn't normally do, it's best to include the costs as a line item in the quotation which gives the customer an opportunity to reconsider or revise the requirements. I've seen many instances where a customer (or potential customer) backed off on the requirements when they saw what it was going to cost.
 
F

Frank T.

#6
Re: FAI for bulletproof glass normally for autos?

"FAI shall be conducted in accordance with SAE AS9102 [...]. When documenting the FAI, the supplier may use the forms contained within AS9102 or equivalent form so long as they contain the minimum information required by AS9102."
A copy of the forms and a training presentation on FAI's can be found here and FAQ's can be found here. As for a step by step, on how to complete the forms and whats required in an FAI report I would suggest obtaining a copy of the AS9102A standard.

Given the application for the product in question, it's not surprising that the customer would want thorough validation and testing. My guess is that your (potential?) customer has chosen a preexisting documentation and testing scheme that meets their needs rather than designing something from scratch, which is good Lean practice. It's not unusual, for example, for companies to use the AIAG PPAP methods even though they're not doing automotive work.

You don't say whether this is a contract that's already been accepted or not, but you'll need to let your customer know that you're not experienced in aerospace work and will need some guidance in fulfilling the requirements. If this is still in the contract review stage, your company's quotation should account for the extra time and money required to fulfill the requirements. In my experience, because this is something that your company doesn't normally do, it's best to include the costs as a line item in the quotation which gives the customer an opportunity to reconsider or revise the requirements. I've seen many instances where a customer (or potential customer) backed off on the requirements when they saw what it was going to cost.
This is good information, as well.
 
I

inuyasha

#7
Re: FAI for bulletproof glass normally for autos?

thank you! thank you everybody! :thanks:
you gave me a lot of informations and sure I will have to contact my customer to solve some doubts..
and to answer some of your questions: yes, this is a NEW customer for us; we will provide him glasses for autovehicles; we are talking of a large amount of glasses, so my bosses want this contract!
note that the subtitle of the contract "supplier quality assurance requirements - general" is: "not applicable to aerospace procurements"!!! :bonk:
the customer also gave us some questionnaires to fill (vendor capability evaluation and QMS evaluation) and, of course, the FAI forms.
Well, I have to study all these forms and the AS9102 standard and be well prepared within less than a month!

:thanx:
 

Wes Bucey

Prophet of Profit
#8
Re: FAI for bulletproof glass normally for autos?

thank you! thank you everybody! :thanks:
you gave me a lot of informations and sure I will have to contact my customer to solve some doubts..
and to answer some of your questions: yes, this is a NEW customer for us; we will provide him glasses for autovehicles; we are talking of a large amount of glasses, so my bosses want this contract!
note that the subtitle of the contract "supplier quality assurance requirements - general" is: "not applicable to aerospace procurements"!!! :bonk:
the customer also gave us some questionnaires to fill (vendor capability evaluation and QMS evaluation) and, of course, the FAI forms.
Well, I have to study all these forms and the AS9102 standard and be well prepared within less than a month!

:thanx:
Please be sure to come back and tell us how it all worked out. We are always eager to hear "the rest of the story!"
 
F

Frank T.

#9
Re: FAI for bulletproof glass normally for autos?

Well, I have to study all these forms and the AS9102 standard and be well prepared within less than a month!
If you get stuck or have any specific questions please don't hesitate to ask, that's what the cove is here for. Good luck.
 
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