FAI (First Article Inspection) vs PPAP (Production Part Approval Process)

#1
Hi Covers,

I am having hard time understanding the difference between FAI and PPAP for a new supplier and an existing supplier.

Maybe these questions will help you understand the trouble I am facing:
  • When is a PPAP performed and when a FAI?
  • Are the both performed at Supplier Site or where are they performed and who is responsible for it (for both PPAP and FAI)?
  • Are we looking only at the CtQ dimensions on the drawing or all the dimensions (for PPAP and FAI)?
  • What if a certain CtQ dimension does not meet the requirement (for both PPAP and FAI). What is the necessary action?
  • What if a certain non-CtQ dimension does not meet the requirement (for both PPAP and FAI). What is the necessary action?
  • Is there any sample size for the lot on which PPAP and/or FAI is being performed?
  • Any relevant standards especially for the aerospace industry (for PPAP and FAI)
Please point me in the right direction.

Thank you for your immense help :)
 
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dsanabria

Quite Involved in Discussions
#2
First - in Aerospace ... The requirements for AS9102 - First Article Inspection Report (FAIR) is imposed by customers. However, internally you could also do it to qualify an effective process.

The PPAP does not exist in Aerospace but AQQP (slight variation of PPAP) is used - AS9137 or ARP9137 - Also impose by the customers.

Before you go and purchase any of those standards - follow the links below for an in depth description (FREE) of both requirements.

Then, we can continue with your questions

Reference - Supply Chain Management Handbook -Chapter 3.2 First Article Inspection and 7.2 Advance Product Quality Planning

http://www.sae.org/servlets/registr...HGeneral&PAGE=getSCMHBOOK&vgenNum=184&scmhs=1

http://www.sae.org/servlets/registr...HGeneral&PAGE=getSCMHBOOK&vgenNum=224&scmhs=2
 

hogheavenfarm

Quite Involved in Discussions
#3
This is usually industry specific, so the requirements may vary from one to the next. In our industry, PPaP and FAI are simultaneous, since the FAI dimensional record is part of the PPAP, along with material specs, etc. When a product is made by a supplier, the FAI is conducted at our site since the FAI requirement is from the customer to us, (and we may not want the customer to know the supplier directly). CTQ dimensions are checked at the FAI, but are part of the total dimensions, they do come into play when a customer approved inspection checklist is required, this list will only show the CTQ's.
Since it is an FAI, all dimensions must be met, so corrections are necessary unless there is a very good reason that existing processes cannot meet them without undue expense.
AS9100 has an FAI form available, PPAPs follow a generic template covering different aspects. Both should be available on this site in the attachments library.
Your industry may vary...
 
#4
CTQ dimensions are checked at the FAI, but are part of the total dimensions, they do come into play when a customer approved inspection checklist is required, this list will only show the CTQ's.
If I am getting this right, the non-CtQ dimensions are also checked at your site for the FAI.
Since it is an FAI, all dimensions must be met, so corrections are necessary unless there is a very good reason that existing processes cannot meet them without undue expense.
AS9100 has an FAI form available, PPAPs follow a generic template covering different aspects. Both should be available on this site in the attachments library.
Your industry may vary...
Let's take a scenario where only one non-CtQ dimension is out of spec for:
  • 1 part
  • certain number of parts
  • All the lot of parts submitted for FAI
What will be the usual action taken?
 

Golfman25

Trusted Information Resource
#5
First, formal PPAP is a creation of the auto industry and AIAG. It has it's own manual and specific requirements, usually supplemented by customers. Enter at your own risk.

"PPAP" has been "hijacked" in many instances - typically a non-automotive customer asks for a "ppap." You have to find out what they need and want.

FAI is part of the PPAP process. Generally all dimensions are checked at this time to record the "starting" point. Anything that is out of spec. has to be addressed either with a change request (bring it in with a pencil) or fixed. The problem you have for some processes is they aren't as cut and dry as a cad system would like. You can have all sorts of measurement and drawing issues.
 

hogheavenfarm

Quite Involved in Discussions
#6
Correct, we supply a PPAP for many of our non auto motive customers. FAI dimensions must be met, since in the development time any issues could have been identified and corrected, including machine capability. I have never seen an out of spec condition accepted at this point. You are presenting the product to the customer as it would be manufactured, waivers or deviations at this point should have been addressed earlier.
Sometimes you will get 'conditional' approval on the FAI, which simply gives you a 'pass' to fix the deviation before production and without another FAI.
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#7
Hi Covers,

I am having hard time understanding the difference between FAI and PPAP for a new supplier and an existing supplier.
What industry are you working in? Probably Aerospace/Defense or Automotive. The answers to some of your questions will be different depending on the industry.
 
A

AFGranda

#8
Hello,

I have to correct desanabria's statement of PPAP in aerospace: PPAP does exist in Aerospace at least in UTC - ASQR-09.2 "UTC Production Approval Process (UPPAP)" which is in turn embedded in ASQR-01 "UTC Supplier Quality". UPPAP is been implementing in both suppliers as production sites. I worked as a QE and UPPAP MFP (member focal point) for UTC Aerospace Systems in San Diego. From my own point of view an FAI just means that you're able to build just one piece but doesn't proof that your process is in control and capable (Cpk>1.3).

Thank you
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#9
This confirms that as stated PPAP has been hijacked.
Do you require the suppliers to use the AIAG PPAP handbook or your own document?

This forum is about PPAP as mandated by the AIAG.
 
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