First Time Internal Auditor - Advice and Tips, please

V

vervecky

#21
I find it a little bizarre that the company has given you the responsibility of being the internal auditor and management representative for the audit. In my years of auditing, I've never come across such a situation.

Are you the only internal auditor?
Who will audit you, as the management rep?

When I first started auditing, I was extremely nervous. I too had taken a lead auditor course but wasn’t convinced that I knew enough to actually lead the audits. After having a couple audits under my belt, it all became much easier.

The main things I try to focus on are:
1. Review the process with the person responsible.

2. You can make it a simple conversation of, “Can you take me through this process __________”. Most people are more than happy to do this and once they are talking about the process, questions will come to your mind to ask.

3. Once they explain the process, you can start to identify the inputs and outputs of the process.

4. If what they tell or show you doesn’t match the procedure or work instruction, you need to dig deeper but in a gentle way. I usually ask “Why is this task performed like this…?”

5. I don’t usually like to use a “check sheet” of questions to ask the operators or staff. I find it much more effective to just talk to the people about the process and then verify the information on the procedures/work instructions. I’ve found many more OFI’s than NC’s and at the same time found that people become much more comfortable when being audited.

6. Review any documents available that pertain to the process.

7. Make sure you write down all revisions and document numbers so that you can verify these documents on the master list of documents.

8. This may take you to other departments, but just follow the process. This will make you a much more effective auditor with “real time” results that will improve the way the company is run.

Good Luck!! :)
 
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G

GAVINSM

#22
Currently as our system has only been live for 4 weeks, I am the only Internal Auditor.

I posed that questions to our accrediation body in terms of myself being Internal Auditor & Management Rep and they where happy with the situation.
 
V

vervecky

#23
Re: First Time Internal Auditor - Advice or Tips, please

Woa! Take pictures of everything?

That wouldn't work in many places. Not something I'd recommend, neither should tape recorders be used...too much like Cops at the scene of the crime.:mg:

Maybe it work for Nestle, and their labs in SA, but it wouldn't in most other places...in my experience...
As the lead internal auditor, I've always taken pictures of NC's, documents, processes, machines, etc when doing audits. The information isn't leaving the company, so there isn't a breach of privacy or information.

I've found that putting the pictures into the audit reports makes management take the NC's and OFI's much more seriously when they see the pictures.

It also stops the "you must have wrote down the wrong document or revision". There's no arguing with a picture that has a date stamp.
 
M

Migre

#24
I'm with AndyN on this. I'd primarily like the audits to be of benefit to the organisation. I believe a culture of trust, understanding and co-operation will make such a situation that little bit more achievable. Taking pictures of anything and everything wouldn't help at all, certainly where I currently work (and the same applies to every organisation I've worked for).

Still - that's not to say it's an absolute no-no. If that works for you and your organisation, then so be it.
 
#25
Re: First Time Internal Auditor - Advice or Tips, please

As the lead internal auditor, I've always taken pictures of NC's, documents, processes, machines, etc when doing audits. The information isn't leaving the company, so there isn't a breach of privacy or information.

I've found that putting the pictures into the audit reports makes management take the NC's and OFI's much more seriously when they see the pictures.

It also stops the "you must have wrote down the wrong document or revision". There's no arguing with a picture that has a date stamp.

From my experience, the reason that you get their attention is because you've adopted this tactic of photographing the 'evidence'. I'd ask what value the core report was conveying, that they needed photographs to get them interested! Any manager who argues such nit-picky points isn't getting the bigger picture and, sadly, it's been my experience that the audits didn't 'illuminate' much for them, so they could see that picture.

Sure, if it works for you, do it. I'd strongly recommend, however, that you take a close look at why you have to wave a picture of something 'wrong' in front of someone before they take your audits (and their corrective actions) seriously...
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#26
What is the saying? A picture is worth a million words...

I agree that, many times, a picture might be extremely valuable as part of the audit report. For example, if you try to describe unsanitary conditions, poor layout, untidiness, cluttered work spaces, etc... a picture will be invaluable, driving the point. Further, as already mentioned, will prevent auditees from playing games.

Digital media should be used to the extent that helps driving a point. For example, the clip available in this post is very concerning, from an occupational health & safety perspective. I don't think you could achieve the same result with words only.
 
V

vervecky

#27
Re: First Time Internal Auditor - Advice or Tips, please

From my experience, the reason that you get their attention is because you've adopted this tactic of photographing the 'evidence'. I'd ask what value the core report was conveying, that they needed photographs to get them interested! Any manager who argues such nit-picky points isn't getting the bigger picture and, sadly, it's been my experience that the audits didn't 'illuminate' much for them, so they could see that picture.

Sure, if it works for you, do it. I'd strongly recommend, however, that you take a close look at why you have to wave a picture of something 'wrong' in front of someone before they take your audits (and their corrective actions) seriously...
Not everyone in management takes a quality audit seriously. I can't change their minds but I can do my job in the most effective way possible. I find that many managers and even plant managers just want to get through the audit and then get back to "the usual business". I found that without pictures, it took much longer to get through the capa process. With pictures, management just seems to take the audit results more seriously. I don't take pictures of employees - only applicable documents, processes and possible issues. I've found it especially useful when finding gauges that are out of calibration date but still being used.

In all of the time I've been using pictures, I've never had a problem with staff and I don't make people feel like I'm directing the audit towards them...but always towards the process.
 
#28
Re: First Time Internal Auditor - Advice or Tips, please

Not everyone in management takes a quality audit seriously. I can't change their minds but I can do my job in the most effective way possible.
I'm not disagreeing, but let me ask you this. What do you do to help them take the audit seriously? For example, do you involve them in planning an audit? Do you focus the scope etc of the audit, with their participation, on something about their process that represents something important to them? Do you assist them to diagnose what parts of their process may be causing performance issues?

I've found, in many cases, that when audits are managed 'outside' of the core of the business and its process and associated performance issues - which is very frequently the case (we see those discussion here to often) - management don't know how to take audits seriously!

We, at the Cove, are constantly asked - "What element of ISO do I write that up under?" Do management even care or speak the language of ISO? A few moments reading those those type of threads reveals a lot about what's wrong with audit program management!

It's human nature to treat things which aren't understood with respect. Are you sure you're doing all you can to help them understand the role of audits, past being something that ISO says?
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#29
Great thread so far! :applause:

Brand new auditor, working in a "young" system... in addition to the great advice so far, I advise:

Do not be too formal. Auditees can be nervous and might not like ot feel like they are being quizzed. The audit is about the quality management system. "I audit processes, not people." It's about how well we go about the business of making good stuff, on time, every time. How we support each other in doing so, what we can do better.

Look for unneeded complexity and yet keep your eyes open for a lack of details when they are needed. Learn not to sweat the small stuff, and when to call "Whoa!" when the small stuff threatens death by a thousand cuts.

Safety is always "on the table," in part because it's part of 6.4 Work environment. I have so often wished I had a camera when noting a safety issue that I finally had my boss get me a cell phone with a camera. Cameras are also good for capturing and sharing evidence of something delightful: a really successful 5S project, for example.

Management is interested in value, so start now in considering the value of doing things well and how the audit supports that. Avoiding rework and scrap, process bottlenecks, dysfunction among support processes and their handoffs, lost productivity, etc. are the reasons these standards exist. Your management system is merely a plan to help make sure that good things happen much more often than bad things, and auditing isn't much more than verifying it's working out okay. And when things are working out well, we should seek to understand why and share our learnings of good stuff as well as issues we discover.

I have learned to take the collaborative approach when it's time to assign CARs - get their buyin or at least an acknowledgement that they understand the issue before issuing the audit report. Some may try to take advantage over this apparent softie approach; you will learn who is a better partner in these efforts than whom.

This is a growing process for all. It's likely that everyone is less than completely sure about what will happen. And that's okay. You're all in it together, make the best of it together.

I hope this helps!
 
Last edited:

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#30
Re: First Time Internal Auditor

We are a Transportation Consultancy, in these first batch of audits I am examing our Project Process, from project startup to project close-out. However our QMS is only 4 weeks old in terms of being live, so I will be mostly examining the front end of the process.

My main concern is probably asking the correct questions, as I know the processes that are being looked at as I had join responsibility for the creation of the QMS for my sins.
GAVINSM,

If your management system largely reflects the way the practice works then the procedures are already implemented.

If, instead of capturing the system that runs your practice, you wrote procedures from the standard then proceed with caution!

I suggest for the first round of audits you determine the accuracy of the documented procedures (do they reflect how the process actually works?) and ask more generally who well the system helps its users to do good work. For the non-users you could ask why they are not using the system and then spend some time with their boss to get the rest of the evidence.

From this you may find:

  • The documented part of the system ignores the system that actually runs the practice
  • The users are suggesting changes to make their processes more effective and the procedures, simpler, more accurate and more useful
  • The leaders who have yet to demonstrate their commitment to requirements (perhaps they do not understand or respect the system)
Such information is very useful for bedding-in the newly appreciated (ignored or despised) management system.

Good luck,

John
 
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