First Time Internal Auditor - Advice and Tips, please

#41
Yes they are questions an external auditor would ask, why should they be any different than the questions an internal auditor asks? Internal/external makes no difference, your auditing the QMS and all aspects of it.
Oh, BIG difference! The simple fact is that a CB auditor has very little time to go into the QMS documentation and make a plan. They have a different objective, see. They have waaaay less time to plan and prepare to audit you, so they tend to ask a different set of questions, because they're approaching the audit from a different point of view.

Internal audits, while superficially similar - especially the way they are taught in some courses - should have a quite different focus and, therefore, the auditor will be asking different questions...Internal auditors have much higher levels of access to the specifics of the QMS for a very definite scope etc. Therefore, their questions should be predicated in getting to the bottom of issues, not 'pie in the sky' simple questions...
 
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#42
Is it a blind question?
Your answer would lead me to your training documentation. You claim to be competent based on training, then there should be training records to that effect, which can be audited.

It is a blind question or an open ended question?
Open ended questions put auditees at ease. You're not there to evaluate the employees performance, that's managements job, you're there to audit the QMS.
I never made a claim to be competent based on training. That's a fallacy! Can't I be competent based on any other criteria? Experience, for example? Can't I have a natural talent? For example, I've never had 1 day's training on the internet, but here I am...

We clearly have a difference of view here. Why would an internal auditor be asking about training? How would they have detected a lack of competency? Just asking about the availability of a document to describe the job is pretty hit or miss, isn't it? If the workforce hasn't changed in a few years, what's the point in asking about training?

Per my other post, asking very general questions - that's all they are - is almost a complete waste of time, IMHO. It confuses the auditor (who's new) and will make the auditee defensive...believe me!
 
J

JaneB

#43
Lots of excellent advice already given, to which I can't add much.

Lets start out slow with generic questions, questions that the employees WILL be asked by an external auditor is practice for both of you, and it will highlight any potental problems before the Certification audit.
This appears to assume that the main point of internal audit is to train auditees in practising for an external audit. It isn't. (OK, at times there may be that need, but it doesn't appear to apply here, nor was that my reading of what was asked.)

Disagree strongly with this:
Yes they are questions an external auditor would ask, why should they be any different than the questions an internal auditor asks? Internal/external makes no difference, your auditing the QMS and all aspects of it.
:mg: Nope.

There should be quite a lot a difference between internal audits and external audits. I would never seek to model internal audit on external audit, nor advise it. That's to misunderstand the purpose, nature and function of each. It doesn't mean you can't learn stuff from good external auditors that you can apply in your own internal audits, but the two are different.

As Andy says:
Internal auditors have much higher levels of access to the specifics of the QMS for a very definite scope etc. Therefore, their questions should be predicated in getting to the bottom of issues, not 'pie in the sky' simple questions...
Yes indeedy. Hit the nail on the head, Andy.
Those 5 basic questions will get you going in the right direction. They will open the doors to just about everything you need to know, and they work for just about every employee in the company.
Erk. No, they won't. They'll almost certainly get the 'deer in the headlights' look and/or turn people off.

Look, I think I understand what you're trying to achieve with those questions and I can understand the goals and agree with them to some extent... but I disagree strongly with asking those questions in that way, as well as refuting your contention that there's no difference between internal and external audits.
 
J

JaneB

#44
I find it a little bizarre that the company has given you the responsibility of being the internal auditor and management representative for the audit. In my years of auditing, I've never come across such a situation.
Really? Maybe you haven't had enough experience, or it's been limited to large companies only. In medium and smaller ones, this is often the case.
 
J

JaneB

#45
Re: First Time Internal Auditor - Advice or Tips, please

So true Andy, we now involve the management team in the planning of the audit schedule and apart from about 5 key process audits we let them drive the schedule.

The schedule is a live document and not cast in stone, we may only have 5 audits planned at the begining of the year but this grows as the management team identify areas of concern or the introduction of new processes.

We have gone from over 35 audits of isolated processes to 4 key audits of our complete process and a system review, all the other audits are requested by management.

They now all attend opening and closing meetings. At the closing meetings we discuss any NCs and get time scales and responsibilities from them.

At this point we do not even raise the "what clause" cos "frankly my dear, they don't give a damm", we would add this into our audit finding form for our own ref. and as a point of ref for our external CB if requested.
This sounds just great.

Well done for making it work for you in your company. Thanks for posting this, it's wonderful to hear of people getting it 'right'. :thanx:
 
H

Hanr3

#46
Oh, BIG difference! The simple fact is that a CB auditor has very little time to go into the QMS documentation and make a plan. ...
The "plan" is a process approach to auditing the QMS. Doesnt really matter who your auditing, they all have the same processes, hence the term Standard. There is a process for document control, record control, etc.

Does your external auditor ask to see your Corrective Actions? Little hint, he now knows your weak areas. You did all the digging for him.
 
C

ChrissieO

#47
The "plan" is a process approach to auditing the QMS. Doesnt really matter who your auditing, they all have the same processes, hence the term Standard. There is a process for document control, record control, etc.

I would not expect Joe Bloggs in the warehouse to know the company document or record control procedure. I would however expect him to know what documents, forms and records he uses for his own work and how they are kept.

Does your external auditor ask to see your Corrective Actions? Little hint, he now knows your weak areas. You did all the digging for him.

Not sure what you are getting at with this
Would you ask every person during the audit if he new the QP and Quality Objectives?

Why would "Joe Bloggs" picking boxes in a warehouse be vagualy interested in what the company quality objectives are?

If objectives are set correctly they will be dissmenated from the policy to all levels of the operation, differing dependant on the job/function but "Joe Bloggs" may not even realise that his set job function targets objectives are part of the bigger picture, he is only interested in what he can effect.

i.e. why would "JB" have any interest that one of the Quality Objectives is to reduce the number of stock numbers. He can't have any effect on it, does not have any knowledge of in deth demand planning nor does he really care. All he needs to know that how his function can effect the customer experience.

You may be better to ask "JB" what are the objectives and targets of his own job functon. then follow them up the functions to management to see if they all eventually feed into the quality policy.

Chrissie
 
#48
The "plan" is a process approach to auditing the QMS. Doesnt really matter who your auditing, they all have the same processes, hence the term Standard. There is a process for document control, record control, etc.

Does your external auditor ask to see your Corrective Actions? Little hint, he now knows your weak areas. You did all the digging for him.
If your audit criterion is ISO 9001...but internal auditors shouldn't be auditing to ISO 9001. Hence the BIG difference in approach to the preparation and conduct of audits!
 
C

ChrissieO

#49
If your audit criterion is ISO 9001...but internal auditors shouldn't be auditing to ISO 9001. Hence the BIG difference in approach to the preparation and conduct of audits!
When will people finally realise this Andy :applause:

Chrissie
 
H

Hanr3

#50
Lots of excellent advice already given, to which I can't add much.


This appears to assume that the main point of internal audit is to train auditees in practising for an external audit. It isn't. (OK, at times there may be that need, but it doesn't appear to apply here, nor was that my reading of what was asked.)

Disagree strongly with this:

:mg: Nope.

There should be quite a lot a difference between internal audits and external audits. I would never seek to model internal audit on external audit, nor advise it. That's to misunderstand the purpose, nature and function of each. It doesn't mean you can't learn stuff from good external auditors that you can apply in your own internal audits, but the two are different.

As Andy says:

Yes indeedy. Hit the nail on the head, Andy.

Erk. No, they won't. They'll almost certainly get the 'deer in the headlights' look and/or turn people off.

Look, I think I understand what you're trying to achieve with those questions and I can understand the goals and agree with them to some extent... but I disagree strongly with asking those questions in that way, as well as refuting your contention that there's no difference between internal and external audits.
Why would there be a difference between external and internal audits?
It's not the auditor's job to solve the companies problems. It's the auditor's job to ensure the QMS as adopted by the company complies with the standard, and that the QMS reflects reality on the production floor. IF the company is utilizing the QMS as intended, the nonconformities will surface. Then following the QMS, the company will resolve those issues, thus improving the quality of their process/product. The purpose of the audit is to ensure the company IS following the QMS, and the QMS follows the Standard.

Deer in the headlight look. :lmao: Happens every time you use ISO jargon. Ask open ended questions in a language they understand. What are you doing? gets them to open up, and ask me a question. Takes them off the defense. Yes the usual response is, what do you mean? To which I reply, tell me about your job.. Then we have a conversation, not a question and answer period. I steer the conversation based on my audit questions. If I'm looking for competency, then I ask qustions related to their skills. If I'm looking for non-conformity process, I ask questions about production errors, machine errors, etc. What happens to the part, do you put it on hold, how does that work, etc. They know their jobs, they know what they are doing. If they didnt know their job, they wouldn't be there long. The question the auditor must answer is this: does the QMS match what the employee is doing, and does the QMS comply with the Standard.

Yes an external auditor will ask more questions about the QMS in relation to the Standard, and yes an internal auditor will ask more questions related to procedures in relation to the QMS. However if the internal auditor isn't auditing the QMS to the standard, they will have findings every time.

At no point is the audit about employee performance. It's not the auditors job to evaluate the employee.
 
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