Flowcharts of Processes Delayed my Internal Audit Plan

[Big Jim]

thank you.. let say, if we dont have flow charts and work procedures written down, how can i start auditing a division processes, what is the basis? in roder to accelerate the internal audit process and not wait for the process flowcharts..

thank you all for reply

Have your internal auditors been trained?

 

[Dubai_capi]

well, i have trained them.. am a certified lead auditor.. still new to the filed of audits..only made one internal audit.. am a quality specialist of 3 years experience..
does it require an outside trainer to grant them certificates of thats enough.. thank you

 

[Paul Simpson]

well, i have trained them.. am a certified lead auditor.. still new to the filed of audits..only made one internal audit.. am a quality specialist of 3 years experience..
does it require an outside trainer to grant them certificates of thats enough.. thank you

Interesting. If you are a certified lead auditor you should have carried out some audits - unless your certificate is for having passed the course - a very different thing. But we can still work with this.

It is also difficult to train others if you are new to the field of audits. You don't need to use an external trainer if you are competent in auditing and are confident you can pass that knowledge and skill to others. From what you have posted I have some concerns.

thank you.. let say, if we dont have flow charts and work procedures written down, how can i start auditing a division processes, what is the basis? in roder to accelerate the internal audit process and not wait for the process flowcharts..

thank you all for reply

As part of your training course you should have done some work on auditing procedures that don't have documentation. It is possible and normally involves getting the auditee to descibe what processes operate in the area and what the key controls are. Without documentation they then need to show you the process in operation and that the controls exist and are working. Records should support what they tell you.

Carry on walking the process and use your judgement as to whether it is working well.

I suggest to use the internal audits to map the existing processes as they are, evaluate their compliance and effectiveness, then update the process maps accordingly. Established processes change over time as they improve and become more effective (hopefully) and the documentation should keep pace with the changes.

Audit as a function is not there to map processes. You are better off going in with a straightforward 'quality' hat to help them with their processes if this isn't treading on the 'other department's' toes (as mentioned by the OP).

Hope this helps.

 

[Dubai_capi]

Well, thank you.. Now I have a better idea of what I am going to do.. Yes for sure, the internal audit is not to map processes, it's meant to help people understand if there are better ways to effectively do their job.. And yes, it was useful to know that the audit can be carried out without the presence of documentation by asking people what they are doing and getting the required evidence and records..

Thank you.

 

[Dubai_capi]

Is it enough to train internal auditors by myself and other people who are experienced with audits in the department? Do they need to obtain certificates for internal audit?.. I have a team allocated to help me conduct the internal audit, but they lack training and any knowledge in the audit.. So am planning to train them with another staff to give them some knowledge on how to carry the audit..

 

[Stijloor]

Is it enough to train internal auditors by myself and other people who are experienced with audits in the department? Do they need to obtain certificates for internal audit?.. I have a team allocated to help me conduct the internal audit, but they lack training and any knowledge in the audit.. So am planning to train them with another staff to give them some knowledge on how to carry the audit..

This is OK as long as the folks that train Internal Auditors are competent to do so.

Stijloor.

 

[DrM2u]

Yes for sure, the internal audit is not to map processes, it's meant to help people understand if there are better ways to effectively do their job.. And yes, it was useful to know that the audit can be carried out without the presence of documentation by asking people what they are doing and getting the required evidence and records.

Very valid statements, indeed. However, since you are following the process flow by interviewing the 'doers', observing practices and reviewing records, then why not take the extra (little) time to also draw a diagram of the process that you are following?!? Next thing you know you'll also have your current process flow diagram. This is what my initial reply was trying to convey.

 

[SteelMaiden]

I am going to take a totally different tack.

You have identified a system nonconformance, even before you found it in an audit. Why wouldn't you just document an internal corrective action request and figure out why you are changing your processes without following up with correcting documentation?

I agree that to wait for another division to draw your flowcharts is not a very effective method of maintaining your system. Heck, grab a pencil and a paper and draw them out, use Excel, use Word, buy a cheap flow chart software. Your other division has work of its own, you are never going to be at the top of their priority list.

Do your audits. If you do not create an internal CAR, I hope one of them is sharp enough to issue you two CARS, one because you identified the problem internally and did nothing about it, and the second because your process flows are out of date.

We need to take responsibility of our systems. We need to quit waiting for an auditor to point out a problem (internal or cb) before we fix it. My pet peeve is being told "why didn't your auditor find this? we knew it wasn't right." yeah, OK, so if it isn't right, do a CAR.