FOD (Foreign Objects and Debris) - AS9100 & Hook Assemblies

kjoberk

Involved In Discussions
#1
Manufacturing outfit going for AS9100D. Creates aerospace products, but do not actively have aircraft in their facility.

GM only wants to implement a "double check" at assembly with two signatures and count that as "prevention, detection, and removal of foreign objects".

Myself and Management Rep have both advised against this, saying that at the very least a FOD Awareness area needs to be created. He's prepared to go toe to toe with our auditor.

How terribly is this going to go come audit time? GM feels that it is "too much" and "unnecessary" to create a program for the entire facility as there is only one thing they create for aerospace and we wholeheartedly disagree but can't seem to change his mind.

Am I wayyyy off base as far as this goes or do I need to really fight this?

:frust::frust::frust:
 
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Sidney Vianna

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#2
re: FOD (Foreign Objects and Debris) - AS9100 & Hook Assemblies

How susceptible are the aero parts to FOD? What kind of products are we talking about? There are many aero products that are impervious to FOD risks.
 

kjoberk

Involved In Discussions
#3
re: FOD (Foreign Objects and Debris) - AS9100 & Hook Assemblies

How susceptible are the aero parts to FOD? What kind of products are we talking about? There are many aero products that are impervious to FOD risks.
I'm not entirely sure how susceptible they are. They create hook assemblies. I'll be honest, I'm not a machinist or a mechanic -- I'm fully an administrative person and while I've been learning, I don't know even a quarter of the stuff that those I work with know.

If our products are impervious to FOD risks, does that need to be stated within our QMS or is this just something that we will talk with the auditor about (if this is case, obviously).

I honestly feel like some type of FOD awareness/cleanliness/etc is a benefit to the company.
 

Sidney Vianna

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#4
re: FOD (Foreign Objects and Debris) - AS9100 & Hook Assemblies

They create hook assemblies.
Are these ground equipment? The idea of a FOD awareness campaign in a shop where the risk of a product failure due to FOD is nonexistent seems wasteful. Akin to educate the workforce about electrostatic discharge risks in a casting house.

The requirements in AS9100D deal with prevention, detection, and removal of foreign objects; If, due to the characteristics of the product, foreign objects are non-applicable, what is the point of educating the workforce about a non-existent risk?
 

kjoberk

Involved In Discussions
#5
re: FOD (Foreign Objects and Debris) - AS9100 & Hook Assemblies

Are these ground equipment? The idea of a FOD awareness campaign in a shop where the risk of a product failure due to FOD is nonexistent seems wasteful. Akin to educate the workforce about electrostatic discharge risks in a casting house.

The requirements in AS9100D deal with prevention, detection, and removal of foreign objects; If, due to the characteristics of the product, foreign objects are non-applicable, what is the point of educating the workforce about a non-existent risk?
It is not ground equipment -- these attach to the belly of the aircraft.

I understand that if there is absolutely no way that there could be foreign objects on or in the hook, the whole thing would be moot -- however, because they do go on aircraft is where my concern lies.

They manufacture this equipment and, because its a machine shop, there are tiny scraps of metal laying around, etc etc etc. They also fabricate items for more individual use (outside of the aerospace industry) and specific projects for the company I work for that also go on aircraft.

So because they are manufacturing and creating items that physically attach to the aircraft that are after market, I feel that there is a possibility that FOD could be there. This is just where my head is at -- like I said previously, I am not a machinist and I am not a mechanic -- but logically, it makes sense to me to cover the bases.
 

dsanabria

Quite Involved in Discussions
#6
re: FOD (Foreign Objects and Debris) - AS9100 & Hook Assemblies

It is not ground equipment -- these attach to the belly of the aircraft.

I understand that if there is absolutely no way that there could be foreign objects on or in the hook, the whole thing would be moot -- however, because they do go on aircraft is where my concern lies.

They manufacture this equipment and, because its a machine shop, there are tiny scraps of metal laying around, etc etc etc. They also fabricate items for more individual use (outside of the aerospace industry) and specific projects for the company I work for that also go on aircraft.

So because they are manufacturing and creating items that physically attach to the aircraft that are after market, I feel that there is a possibility that FOD could be there. This is just where my head is at -- like I said previously, I am not a machinist and I am not a mechanic -- but logically, it makes sense to me to cover the bases.
What are the requirements of the customers - they are the ones that you should be listening to, they know the product and risk.
 

kjoberk

Involved In Discussions
#7
re: FOD (Foreign Objects and Debris) - AS9100 & Hook Assemblies

What are the requirements of the customers - they are the ones that you should be listening to, they know the product and risk.
The only answer I've gotten for this is "they just want us to be AS9100 certified".
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#8
re: FOD (Foreign Objects and Debris) - AS9100 & Hook Assemblies

Are you referring to "cargo hooks"?

If so, they are externally mounted on helicopters, most likely a combination of electrically/mechanically operated, and with very little potential of creating a FOD problem. The #1 reason for very little FOD potential is because they operate in a high FOD producing environment with dirt, rocks, stick, and every other kind of rubbish blowing around them during cargo operations.

I am a mechanic (A&P), and I've installed, used and removed cargo hooks from a variety of helicopters close to 40 years.

But, there is very little reason to not have a strong FOD program when making anything that goes on an aircraft other than trying to do stuff on the cheap, and a piece of metal or other rubbish could cause a catastrophic problem if a hook couldn't function properly and the aircrew was prevented from "pickling" its load during an emergency as illustrated in the attached photo.

The bird had a problem, the cargo hook didn't release and this is the end result. The cargo hook didn't cause the problem but having to ride the load added to the damage and loss of life.

FOD is never a joke especially if you've survived like I have.
 

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kjoberk

Involved In Discussions
#9
re: FOD (Foreign Objects and Debris) - AS9100 & Hook Assemblies

Are you referring to "cargo hooks"?

If so, they are externally mounted on helicopters, most likely a combination of electrically/mechanically operated, and with very little potential of creating a FOD problem. The #1 reason for very little FOD potential is because they operate in a high FOD producing environment with dirt, rocks, stick, and every other kind of rubbish blowing around them during cargo operations.

I am a mechanic (A&P), and I've installed, used and removed cargo hooks from a variety of helicopters close to 40 years.

But, there is very little reason to not have a strong FOD program when making anything that goes on an aircraft other than trying to do stuff on the cheap, and a piece of metal or other rubbish could cause a catastrophic problem if a hook couldn't function properly and the aircrew was prevented from "pickling" its load during an emergency as illustrated in the attached photo.

The bird had a problem, the cargo hook didn't release and this is the end result. The cargo hook didn't cause the problem but having to ride the load added to the damage and loss of life.

FOD is never a joke especially if you've survived like I have.

So I want to be clear as to what I'm hearing:

Because it is a cargo hook, and externally attached to the helicopter, it is very unlikely that a dangerous FOD situation would occur. It could, but it's unlikely. This makes having a fully developed FOD program somewhat unnecessary, however, because it is a manufacturing company working on aerospace products, there is no reason why they shouldn't have a FOD program fully implemented.


After reading through everyones responses, I am inclined to believe that it isn't completely necessary because we are not working directly with aircraft, but, there is no draw back to having a FOD program (this is what I want anyway)...Hopefully this is the correct track as we have a meeting today to go over our internal audit results and this is going to get brought up then and has been a huge point of contention between employees.
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#10
re: FOD (Foreign Objects and Debris) - AS9100 & Hook Assemblies

So I want to be clear as to what I'm hearing:

Because it is a cargo hook, and externally attached to the helicopter, it is very unlikely that a dangerous FOD situation would occur. It could, but it's unlikely. This makes having a fully developed FOD program somewhat unnecessary, however, because it is a manufacturing company working on aerospace products, there is no reason why they shouldn't have a FOD program fully implemented.


After reading through everyones responses, I am inclined to believe that it isn't completely necessary because we are not working directly with aircraft, but, there is no draw back to having a FOD program (this is what I want anyway)...Hopefully this is the correct track as we have a meeting today to go over our internal audit results and this is going to get brought up then and has been a huge point of contention between employees.
Even though the hook itself may not be prone to FOD issues, aircraft manufacturers will not be happy if they open a crate of hooks that has machining chips inside that can spread to their assembly operations.
 
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