For Internal Audit findings, would you open a CAPA for every observation?

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#21
Hi All,

For Internal Audit:

Would you open CAPA's for all observations (Major or Minor) or only Majors?
What is the benefit and why? Please clarify your position.

In my opinion, I would open a CAPA's for all observations, because regardless if this is a CAPA or not, you still need to do all the activities (investigation, root cause, action and effectiveness verification). So why not do it all in one system (CAPA) instead of multiple systems?
Michael,

Like most people I have a tendency to ignore so-called observations.

The system is either effective or is not and observations often are expressions of the auditor's opinion.

BTW, the term observation was replaced with finding years ago. An audit finding is a statement of fact (good or bad) from the audit.

I also recommend treating OFIs with a certain amount of contempt.

Instead I greatly value a well-crafted nonconformity statement.

One day, I hope, all auditors will also be explaining the benefits of their well-crafted nonconformity statements.

John
 
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J

JaneB

#22
Such an example points to the fact that much of what is taught in internal and lead auditor courses is based on external auditor thinking:- "If I'm at a supplier's premises then I want them to take corrective action" etc.
Spot on. Too many of the courses, whether lead auditor courses or so-called 'internal auditor' courses are biased toward, and based on, external audits and external auditor thinking. External audits and internal audits are and should be different. As should the training and the focus.
Then you get, unsurprisingly, people who are supposed to be internal auditors trying to audit pretty much to an external audit 'script'. Sigh.

But Andy, is there something missing in the following? Because I couldn't get it:
And the course (accreditation) requirements do little to make any distinctions.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
#23
Jane - that should read 'do', not 'to'...
RABQSA et al have defined course content requirements which an accredited course must meet. These rarely - if ever - make any distinction between course materials teaching approaches used by internal auditors vs external. For example, in most Lead Auditor courses I taught, rarely did I encounter anyone who was going to audit suppliers or become a CB auditor. The course required (and in this case, was so approved content) for the agenda items to be covered at an opening meeting. There were 10 items! There was nothing to distinguish between what would be unnecessary for an internal auditor to cover...like confidentiality! I had to make my own, personal, intervention to discuss that. I wonder what would have happened if I'd been audited by said RABQSA personnel! Not sticking to the materials?
 
J

JaneB

#26
RABQSA et al have defined course content requirements which an accredited course must meet. These rarely - if ever - make any distinction between course materials teaching approaches used by internal auditors vs external. For example, in most Lead Auditor courses I taught, rarely did I encounter anyone who was going to audit suppliers or become a CB auditor. The course required (and in this case, was so approved content) for the agenda items to be covered at an opening meeting. There were 10 items! There was nothing to distinguish between what would be unnecessary for an internal auditor to cover...like confidentiality!
Yup - that bears out my experience with the LA course with one certifier. Similar deal... immensely lengthy and formal focus on stuff like The Opening Meeting and all the items to be covered off - and this in a class composed of almost entirely internal auditors.

Two were going to audit suppliers, but they also already had a lot of experience of doing that, and an very well planned program for it. Unfortunately the instructors ignored that, and went laboriously through all the stuff that was obviously external audit focussed... tedious in the extreme. And not useful! And didn't ever draw attention to the distinctions and differences! I could go on, but I think we're already in strong agreement. :D

PS. Duh - missed the 'do' for 'to'.
 
K

Ka Pilo

#28
This question can lead to a circular argument.

Stijloor.
For the record. I am, of course, for less work but effective. Regarding the circular argument it may lead, I intend to respect the OP and contributors so please ignore my question above. Apologies.
 
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