Definition Form vs. Record - What is the Difference between a Form and a Record

Patricia Ravanello

Quite Involved in Discussions
#21
Re: What is the Difference between a Form and a Record

After confusing intended output of a process with byproducts, the concept of revision controlled records is not that far fetched...:mg:.
:confused:OK, I'm confused, :confused:
Your message is a bit cryptic...Are you suggesting that Records aren't "revised"...or that the Revision of records is just a concept???

Patricia
 
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Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#22
Re: What is the Difference between a Form and a Record

:confused:OK, I'm confused, :confused:
Your message is a bit cryptic...Are you suggesting that Records aren't "revised"...or that the Revision of records is just a concept???

Patricia
Allow me to chime in here. It depends on the definition of document and record. What some folks call "records", are actually documents (instructive) and subject to review and possible revision. I view records as evidence of completion, are filed and not revised anymore.

Stijloor.
 
R

remsqa

#23
Re: What is the Difference between a Form and a Record

hai

it is very clear,Form can be controlled with rev no and can be changed.

But the record is a filled form ,which can't be corrected or revised, if so it is offence.

Regards

R.L.Satthish Kumar
:bonk::agree1:
 

Patricia Ravanello

Quite Involved in Discussions
#24
Re: What is the Difference between a Form and a Record

Allow me to chime in here. It depends on the definition of document and record. What some folks call "records", are actually documents (instructive) and subject to review and possible revision. I view records as evidence of completion, are filed and not revised anymore.

Stijloor.
Your right...it's a matter of definition. I've never seen the term "instructive" as a distinguishing or required attribute/characteristic of a document...(but that's germane to this discussion...).

Call them what you will, but assuming the following, fairly typical System Documentation Hierarchy, where do the "Controlled Records" which I identified above, fit??
Level 1 - System Manual
Level 2 - Procedures
Level 3 - Work Instructions
Level 4 - Forms
Level 5 - Records (controlled & uncontrolled) and References (controlled and uncontrolled)​

...or explain/show where they fit in your system documentation hierarchy.
Patricia Ravanello
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#25
Re: What is the Difference between a Form and a Record

Your right...it's a matter of definition. I've never seen the term "instructive" as a distinguishing or required attribute/characteristic of a document...(but that's germane to this discussion...).

Call them what you will, but assuming the following, fairly typical System Documentation Hierarchy, where do the "Controlled Records" which I identified above, fit??
Level 1 - System Manual
Level 2 - Procedures
Level 3 - Work Instructions
Level 4 - Forms
Level 5 - Records (controlled & uncontrolled) and References (controlled and uncontrolled)​

...or explain/show where they fit in your system documentation hierarchy.
Patricia Ravanello
Patricia,

Using your 5-level hierarchy, my "definition" of records (for what it's worth) would fit in level 5. I do not get hung up on "levels of documents." I look at them in the context of the system and its processes they support and the need for objective evidence to be provided. My clients can call them John, Dick and Harry if they wish. Ultimately, it's the effectiveness and continual improvement that counts.

Stijloor.
 

michellemmm

Quest For Quality
#26
Re: What is the Difference between a Form and a Record

Using your 5-level hierarchy, my "definition" of records (for what it's worth) would fit in level 5. I do not get hung up on "levels of documents." I look at them in the context of the system and its processes they support and the need for objective evidence to be provided. My clients can call them John, Dick and Harry if they wish. Ultimately, it's the effectiveness and continual improvement that counts.

Stijloor.
I agree:yes:

I am concerned about the perception that increase in the number of level/tiers of documents assures improvement and control. ISO does not specify if a company should have three, four, or ten tier of documents. Organizations have to determine the shortest distance between point A to point B.
 

Patricia Ravanello

Quite Involved in Discussions
#27
Re: What is the Difference between a Form and a Record

Patricia,

Using your 5-level hierarchy, my "definition" of records (for what it's worth) would fit in level 5. I do not get hung up on "levels of documents." I look at them in the context of the system and its processes they support and the need for objective evidence to be provided. My clients can call them John, Dick and Harry if they wish. Ultimately, it's the effectiveness and continual improvement that counts.

Stijloor.
Hi Stijloor,
I'm not caught up in the level of documents...I just want to clarify what records are...and I can see by your response, that we are in agreement regarding the "Controlled Records" which I listed earlier.

I think it wise to concur on terminology. Isn't that the whole point of "Standardization", thereby enhancing effectiveness and efficiency?? Everyone should be speaking the same language when it comes to terminology. It's not that complex, but this discussion is likely to confuse more than to enlighten.

Back to Randy's point, which was, that Records can change...and per the "Controlled Records" identifed above (and which you have agreed, are in fact records), I submit to you, once again, that "Records can change".

Regards,
Patricia

PS. I would discourage my customers from referring to "records" as Tom or Harry Dick (and I'd be reluctant to ask to see them!!) :notangel:
 
Last edited:
#28
Re: What is the Difference between a Form and a Record

Randy is correct.

There are two types of records:

1) Controlled Records (those subject to review and revision, and usually have a Revision Level on them)
Examples:
Purchase Orders
Organizational Chart
Business Plan
Communication Plan
Training Plan
Business Operating System Model
Engineering Drawings
Engineering Standards
Material Specifications
Bill of Materials
Policy Statement

Sorry Randy...I'm not trying to answer for you...just supporting your perspective.

Patricia​


This is a new one to me, so I'm going to need some help. I don't see what or how these record anything. Can you explain for me Patricia, you basis for this thought?

you see, I've always gone along with the practice that a record was related to some (planned) event, hopefully some data that would give evidence of that event showed conformity with a requirement (like an inspection record of variables data to show a product chracteristic meets the design drawing, for example) Just as others have posted here. Now I'm really befuddled.

A business plan, org.chart etc have, in my world at least, always fallen under the heading of a document, and never a record..........​
 

Patricia Ravanello

Quite Involved in Discussions
#29
Re: What is the Difference between a Form and a Record

This is a new one to me, so I'm going to need some help. I don't see what or how these record anything. Can you explain for me Patricia, you basis for this thought?

you see, I've always gone along with the practice that a record was related to some (planned) event, hopefully some data that would give evidence of that event showed conformity with a requirement (like an inspection record of variables data to show a product chracteristic meets the design drawing, for example) Just as others have posted here. Now I'm really befuddled.

A business plan, org.chart etc have, in my world at least, always fallen under the heading of a document, and never a record..........
Hi Andy,
I hope the attached page sheds some light on my thinking. If it doesn't answer your questions, hit me with them again...

The reason why agreement on this is important is because employees have to know clearly what's what when they implement their SOP on the Control of Documents and Records. They need to know "what is" and "how to" manage both a Controlled and Uncontrolled Document, regardless of whether it's an SOP, WI, Form, Record, Standard, Specification, or Report, and regardless of what you call it...document or record.

It doesn't matter how many documentation levels you have.​
Your SOP should distinguish the difference and the appropriate management process of the various documents, both controlled and uncontrolled (ownership, storage, retention period, review, approval, etc.)

Patricia Ravanello
 

Attachments

Patricia Ravanello

Quite Involved in Discussions
#30
Re: What is the Difference between a Form and a Record

I agree:yes:

I am concerned about the perception that increase in the number of level/tiers of documents assures improvement and control. ISO does not specify if a company should have three, four, or ten tier of documents. Organizations have to determine the shortest distance between point A to point B.
Hi Michellemmm,
The number of documentation tiers/levels is not in contention. I concur that that decision is left to the discretion of the organization.

Please see attachment in my last post for further clarification.

My point was, and is, as Randy said, "Records can Change".

Patricia Ravanello
 
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