Form vs. Tool? Is Control Necessary?

A

AmandaMusser

#1
I hope that somebody can help me out with a Form vs. Tool debate.

I had an Engineer put in a request for a new document that he is calling a form. This document, "PDCA Problem Solving Form" reflects the Plan, Do, Check Act process, along with the 4M's Fishbone Diagram, and will be used as a problem solving tool. Once all information is filled in and the solution is implemented, the form will be discarded.

Years ago an ISO auditor told me that if you put the word "Tool" in the title of your document, the document did not need to be controlled. I do not know if this is true or not.

My question is this, "Since the document is not retained at all, does it need to be titled "form", and does it need to be controlled?" :frust:

Thanks in advance!
 
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Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#2
Re: Form vs. Tool?

I hope that somebody can help me out with a Form vs. Tool debate.

I had an Engineer put in a request for a new document that he is calling a form. This document, "PDCA Problem Solving Form" reflects the Plan, Do, Check Act process, along with the 4M's Fishbone Diagram, and will be used as a problem solving tool. Once all information is filled in and the solution is implemented, the form will be discarded.

Years ago an ISO auditor told me that if you put the word "Tool" in the title of your document, the document did not need to be controlled. I do not know if this is true or not.

My question is this, "Since the document is not retained at all, does it need to be titled "form", and does it need to be controlled?" :frust:

Thanks in advance!
First, there is nothing to the idea that documents that include the word "tool" in the title do not need to be controlled. If that were true, you could just call all of your documents "Tool" and not have to control any of them. The need for control is determined by content and utility.

Retention, or lack thereof, is also sometimes irrelevant with respect to control. You might want to control the form itself in order to control what information it contains when it's filled out, even if it is discarded later. You should decide for yourself whether or not control is necessary.
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#3
Re: Form vs. Tool?

I hope that somebody can help me out with a Form vs. Tool debate.

I had an Engineer put in a request for a new document that he is calling a form. This document, "PDCA Problem Solving Form" reflects the Plan, Do, Check Act process, along with the 4M's Fishbone Diagram, and will be used as a problem solving tool. Once all information is filled in and the solution is implemented, the form will be discarded.

Years ago an ISO auditor told me that if you put the word "Tool" in the title of your document, the document did not need to be controlled. I do not know if this is true or not.

My question is this, "Since the document is not retained at all, does it need to be titled "form", and does it need to be controlled?" :frust:

Thanks in advance!
Hello Amanda,

It all depends.... If this document is considered a part of your corrective action process, you must retain this document as a record. Whether you call it tool, form, or whatever is not important. When you use this document as an information collection device and later entered in the computer system, you can discard it. Now the electronic version becomes your record.

I am sure other Covers will respond.

Hope this helps.

Stijloor.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#4
Re: Form vs. Tool?

You can call it a dogbone, frisbee, eggplant or anything you want...it doesn't matter.

What does matter is what the item is used for. If it is relevant to the system and the need to meet requirements and achieve customer satisfaction, and it is essential to planning, and it is documented, it has to be controlled.
 
A

AmandaMusser

#5
Re: Form vs. Tool?

Thank you all for your quick responses! It looks as though the team will be using the information collected to implement "permanent countermeasures" on the production line. I will have to get with the Engineer again to determine if this would be used as a direct result of a corrective action. Either way I believe it should be controlled.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#6
Re: Form vs. Tool?

...Either way I believe it should be controlled.
yes. please review 4.2.3, first sentence:

4.2.3 Control of documents
Documents required by the quality management system shall be controlled....

The solution is not to leave them out of doc control. The secret is to make doc control very simple and easy.
 
M

M Greenaway

#7
Yeah this sounds like a record of corrective and/or preventive action so document control is required in terms of retention of this record, but only keep it if it is useful !

As to the blank form, if it just shows the PDCA cycle and a bare Fishbone diagram then I dont know what 'control' you might need other than something that assures that this form we want to use gets used for this purpose.
 
W

Willem

#8
I would say to avoid unecssary questions from auditors or from customers that audit you rather make it a controlled form as it can become part of corrective/preventive action. A question that comes up on a regular basis in audits is wht proof do you have that preventive action is done.
 
M

M Greenaway

#9
I can audit whether or not a preventive action was done by go viewing the claimed action in the real word, rather than being satisfied that it is written on a form.
 
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