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Formats for Turtle Diagram Models for a Variety of Different System Models

  • Thread starter The Quality Kid
  • Start date
#11
FWIW,
-the octupus diagram was developed by Ford. I forgot the originators name. He was the Ford rep at the TS2 rollout sessions.
-he original "turtle' was developed by P. Crosby,
-flow charts were developed as a result of the computer industry sometime in the 60's. (Juran)
 
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B

Bigfoot

#12
Sam, Thanks for correctly attributing the turtle to P. Crosby. The FORD guy who developed the Octopus diagram, would that be Russ Hopkins?
 
#13
Yes. During the first rollout the question was asked, "Is there a special software program developed to implement this diagram"? The answer "no". To be used only as a tool by the organization and will not be auditable.
 
#15
Welcome to the Cove - try using a search to find what you're looking for. There are many threads about turtles and many examples for you to view.

Andy
 

Patricia Ravanello

Quite Involved in Discussions
#17
Finally... an enlightened perspective on Turtle Diagrams (IMHO)...this article appeared in a January 2007 Newsletter from Quality Digest's Quality Insider. Of course this is just one consultant's opinion, but he makes several very good points. I have long subscribed to the thinking that Turtle Diagrams should be viewed as "a rough-draft reference" to help you create your process maps. They help to keep you focused, so that you make sure you answer each question associated with each "turtle appendage" as you build your process (which is really a whole caravan of turtles in a defined sequence). Then throw them away!!! They represent your rough draft - a working tool...they're not an Operating System Document...You can't teach from them, and and a person could never learn a process, much less implement it, using a turtle diagram - and your internal auditors can't audit from them...unless they're mind readers, and know all your company processes by heart... They have no other meaningful purpose...and they're no substitue for full-blown process maps. (and they're not mandatory!!).

This article is sure to stir the "Turtle" Soup pot...ENJOY!!! (Sorry the illustrations didn't copy...but they were just the classic turtle models which are posted in many places on the Cove)

Patricia Ravanello

Quality Digest said:
Auditors, Turtle Diagrams and Waste Less is more

by Mike Micklewright

In the past several months, registrar auditors strongly recommended to three former or current clients that they develop and install turtle diagrams for each of their processes. Two auditors from one registrar actually taught a former client how to develop a turtle diagram during a surveillance audit.

In the stand-up quality comedy routine that I perform for ASQ’s section meetings, conferences and corporate events, I reveal my sarcastic list of “seven basic habits of highly effective registrar auditors.” Habit no.2 is, “Inform the auditee that you aren’t allowed to give advice, and then give advice.” I then reveal a double-billed cap, and say that, in the spirit of ISO 9001 clause 7.5.3, “Identification and traceability,” registrar auditors should be required to identify their service at the time of provision.

So, when auditors are auditing, they should show the “auditor” side of the cap. As soon as they start giving advice, they should flip the cap around and show the word “consultant.” Registrar auditors must not give advice, because by doing so, they lose their objectivity.

What is a turtle diagram?
Two registrar auditors suggested the turtle diagram format below. The typical turtle diagram has inputs and outputs surrounding the process in question. How does this diagram do what the procedure or agenda forms don’t? Such diagrams defeat their own purpose—they aren’t written in process format. For example, how do the three “support processes” and the two “linkages” fit in, and when do they fit in? Furthermore, the document is written in batch form rather than process flow.

Two registrar auditors developed this turtle diagram during a surveillance audit for their clients. It is easy to see how it would be helpful for the auditor and his report, but it isn’t easy to see how this adds value to the company’s quality system.
Read more...
 
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#19
Patricia -thanks so much for posting that excellent article here. Mr. Micklewright knows his stuff, that's for sure!

Its amazing how these infernal diagrams have become almost mythical in their use and all to satisfy an external auditor - how many times has that been stated(particularly in posts here).... "I asked my auditor if it's alright!"

I, for one, which all turtles would (quickly) crawl into the sea to be replaced by common sense. It was simply a way to get 'element' auditors to think (and hopefully) audit by process. Not as a means to document the system.

I will sleep better tonight.........:lmao:

Andy
 
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B

Bigfoot

#20
Patricia -thanks so much for posting that excellent article here. Mr. Micklewright knows his stuff, that's for sure!

Its amazing how these infernal diagrams have become almost mythical in their use and all to satisfy an external auditor - how many times has that been stated(particulalry in posts here).... "I asked my auditor if it's alright!"

I, for one, which all turtles would (quickly) crawl into the sea to be replaced by common sense. It was simply a way to get 'element' auditors to think (and hopefully) audit by process. Not as a means to document the system.

I will sleep better tonight.........:lmao:

Andy
As most users of the Turtles are transitioning from some form of Quality System scheme to the Process Approach of ISO 9001 / TS 16949 they tend to migrate toward what has been working for others who have made the conversion previously. That said I found the Turtle diagrams to be a good tool from which to do just as you have suggested - Train "ELEMENT" Auditors to apply the Process Approach. As these auditors become more experienced at following the Process there is less and less need of the Turtles as a crutch. :yes:
 
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