Future of APQP and PPAP in Doubt? 2005 Update

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#1
I was doing some searching and saw this:
http://www.qualitymag.com/CDA/ArticleInformation/features/BNP__Features__Item/0,6425,99169,00.html
Posted on: 05/05/2003

Future of APQP and PPAP in Doubt
By Roderick A. Munro

As ISO/TS 16949 moves toward becoming the newest standard in the automotive arena, Advanced Product Quality Planning (APQP) and Production Parts Approval Process (PPAP) and their applications--which were born out of U.S. initiatives--will undoubtedly reflect the changes brought by the new international standard. The impact of ISO/TS 16949 on the U.S. automotive industry will be felt all the way from the supply chain to the automotive assembly lines.
The article looks dated despite the posting date of 5 May 2003. And the content does not appear to support the article title per se.

Any comments?
 
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B

Bigfoot

#2
Marc,

I have heard some noise, but can't remeber where I heard it, that the APQP manual was on it's last leg and would not be revised again due to the detailed manner with which Product Realization is spelled out in section 7 of TS-2. I have not heard anything regarding a departure from supporting PPAP. :eek: Although each of the BIG 3 have their own quirks now it is still better than the confusing :mad: mess it was when each of them had their own process instead of a common format for the Product Appproval Process.
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#3
I think this is just a very formalistic look at the requirements.

"A rose by any other name is still a rose"

QS9000 called out the AIAG manuals, TS calls out customer demands.

The VDA (German) has a defined method of ISIR - PPAP which is very similar .
The French have a similar method etc.....
With the growth of globalisation Eurpean and US companies are gradually consolidating their demands.
I do not know much about Japan but I am sure that someone will add this aspect.

If in the past there was one reference book, for those that worked only in or with the US there are now international sources.

If you work only in or with the US there should be no difference to you.
 
D

D.Scott

#4
I agree with Howard.

The big trouble as I see it is that we seem to be going back to the old days Bigfoot referred to. It seems now we are again faced with 5 or 6 different versions of the same requirement, each carrying specific forms and paperwork.

The thing that makes it real scarry is the further down the supply chain you go, the more "customer specific" requirements (read interpretations) are imposed.

Dave
 
T

Tom W

#5
Interesting points, but do we see the US based AIAG books going away? Do we really think the big three can agree to something like that? Sounds like a typical big 3 situation that make more work for suppliers and less work for them. They pick and choose what they themselves will follow; yet demand a lot more from their suppliers. Strange thing is their suppliers are actually their customers????
 

bpritts

Involved - Posts
#6
A few days ago, I saw a reference that stated that the GM-Ford-DC task
force was reviewing and revising PPAP right now. Can't remember where
I saw it - maybe it will come back to me. Probably an AIAG newsletter.

Also, I have been told that Ford has had its own FMEA standards for some
time (don't supply them, so I haven't had the need to learn more.)

SImilarly, Delphi has its own "takes" on items such as P-FMEA (they have
unique rating #'s for frequency, severity, and detection; a proprietary process
flow diagram approach, a proprietary run-at rate approach... ). To their
credit their stuff is pretty well done, but the advantage of a standard is...
that it's standard!

GM has its "Quality System Basics" program which gives a number of
prescriptive methods for handling customer complaints, doing "layered"
internal audits; defining the format for work instructions, etc.

I share the concern that we're moving back to the company specific world.

Brad
 
#7
D.Scott said:
I agree with Howard.

The big trouble as I see it is that we seem to be going back to the old days Bigfoot referred to. It seems now we are again faced with 5 or 6 different versions of the same requirement, each carrying specific forms and paperwork.

The thing that makes it real scarry is the further down the supply chain you go, the more "customer specific" requirements (read interpretations) are imposed.

Dave
I have similar concerns. QS started because we had a zilliion different requirements from the Big 3. They wanted to standardize the way things were done. I was hoping the consolidation would continue (for example having one corrective action process) Now, it appears we are swinging back the other way.

Oh well, it helps keep us consultants working. :rolleyes:
 
R

Rob Nix

#8
When the bully on the block feels he's losing his grip, he gets a better grip with the other hand. When the big-3 were truly BIG, the only game on the block, they had CONTROL. The AIAG did their bidding. And consolidation of standards was a good thing. After all, PPAP is based on GM's original GM-1386 form and GR&Rs still follow GM's long method - and Ford promoted SPC and Cpk studies before the merging began.

HOWEVER, with globalization came the loosening grip of the big 3. It appears the AIAG / IASG is weakening under the broader IAOB / IATF. I imagine the big 3 are trying to restore things to as close to the vest as possible. And their off shoots, e.g. Delphi, Visteon, etc. are now execising their independence and doing the same.

So I agree also. I think we are seeing things going in the other direction, perhaps even seeing special 'customer specific' quality system audits return. :frust:
 
I

isogirl - 2004

#9
Perhaps this should be titled the "Evolution and De-Evolution of the Automotive QMS". Here is an update on revisions from AIAG's Quality Quickbytes.
 
S

SteelWoman

#10
Does indeed seem odd. Our auditor recently told us to get OUT of the habit of using the phrase "PPAP" - we must use Product Approval process now, supposedly to steer us toward what the "customer" wants and away from old QS thinking. I just finished up my plant-wide "Introduction to TS16949" training, and it took all I had to tell the groups that TS was supposed to be (emphasis on "supposed") a more cohesive, unified system than QS. I agree it seems to be devolving into the exact OPPOSITE. We can't do PPAPs anymore - we have to do the Product approval process agreed upon by the customer? Which could, in theory, be any of a zillion different methods?

I just queried all my customers to find out whether they want us to use the AIAG PPAP manual as their preferred method, or if they prefer another method. Without exception, they all chose the AIAG PPAP manual.

I'll just go take my AIAG manual and cross off the title and write in PRODUCT APROVAL PROCESS - that should make the auditor happy, right? !
 
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