Gage R & R - Do we specifically have to do Gage R&R on every gauge?

D
#1
Do we specifically have to do Gage R & R on every gauge to be in compliance with QS? Is it customer control plan driven? Everyone I talk to tells me a different story. Why doesn't QS specify instead of playing games?
Is this standard something anyone wants to play games with?
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

Marc

Fully vaccinated are you?
Leader
#2
Rule of thumb is if it's on the control plan, you have to evaluate it. R&R is only one way but is what most folks use.
 
C

Christian Lupo

#3
Actually QS does specify, that all measurement systems in the control plan must be evaluated using the MSA or an equivalent evaluation system.
 

Marc

Fully vaccinated are you?
Leader
#4
Christian and I are saying the same thing. I used the 'rule of thumb' statement because you may find other instruments you want to do an analysis on but as a minimum you must address those on the control plan.
 
A

Arvind

#5
If you are OK with process capability then Gage R & R doesnot matter

Think of it from the first principle why we do gage R & R before evaluating process capability.
Gage R & R will only reduce the process capability compared to ideal state. Therefore when capability is low, you need to know whether low capability is a result of process common cause or poor measurement system!
If you donot know exact answer, you may end up in spending money on process whereas you should have spending on measurement system.
However, if your process is robust and if you have a proof of satisfactory performance from customer point of view, you donot need to do gage R & R just for the sake of it.

It is good idea to use engineering judgement rather than checking the box approach.

Arvind
 

Caster

An Early Cover
Trusted Information Resource
#6
Dawn said:
Do we specifically have to do Gage R & R on every gauge to be in compliance with QS? Is it customer control plan driven? Everyone I talk to tells me a different story. Why doesn't QS specify instead of playing games?
The standard is pretty clear. I call this Snakes & Ladders.

See how quickly it creates several hundred pages of reading in 3 books?

Measurement System Analysis - 4.11.4



....This requirement shall apply to measurement systems referenced in the customer approved Control Plan (see 4.2.3.7). The analytical methods and acceptance criteria used should conform to those in the Measurement Systems Analysis reference manual [e.g. bias, linearity, stability, repeatability and reproducibility studies).....

The Control Plan - 4.2.3.7

Refer to the Production Part Approval Process manual.

PPAP Manual v3 page 8 para I.2.2.10 MSA Studies see also MSA manual

It is understood that each "type" of gage mentioned on the CP is to be studied.

We do not do MSA on every Go No Go plug gage (thousands and thousands). We just do by type.

This has survived 3 different registrars and PPAP submissions are clearly indicated as "type".

Good luck, nothing is a frustrating as trying to "lawyer" the 600 plus pages of QS 9000.
 
M

martin elliott

#7
Playing the game or common sense

Of course don't forget MSA 3 Pg 23 which notes "common sense is the guide in any case" - always assuming your common sense is the same as the auditor/customer!!!!

In my opinion It does not say use GR&R in all cases, it says use the appropriate MSA technique for the situation. This could be as little as calibration trend analysis, to the full box of MSA toys.

I have found to date (famous last words), by specifing the MSA considered to be appropriate during APQP, and I use an extra column on my version of the Control Plan to record this, none yet have questioned me too deep to raise a NCR.

Big problem is rewriting historic Plans just to show this as I've only got nine years to retirement.

Martin in the sunny UK
 
J

Joe_winter

#8
MSA just for equipments for calibration in PPAP?

as Arvind said, MSA is just for defects analysis but not mistake-proofed.
in PPAP cl.I.2.2.10, for all equipment used for new or modified gages, , do you think so??
another question, R&R is facilitated, but bias, linearity, stability studies are all difficult to get. These are also required? no, my point of view. Are agreed upon? :biglaugh:
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
F How often should Gage R&R's be updated? Is there a recommended time-frame? Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 4
W What is dimensional layout of the gage? Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 5
Q Does a gage used for a visual verification need to be calibrated? Manufacturing and Related Processes 7
T Gage Numbering Using GAGEpack Software 6
S Gage R&R for inline measuring machine Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 9
B Gage calibration Gonogo (calcul of cgk) General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 0
PastorBee13 Attribute Gage R&R with no bad samples Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 3
H Air Pressure Gage Calibration General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 6
M Spot Weld Nugget - MSA Gage R&R Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 2
D Gage type and data base maintainence Using GAGEpack Software 2
F Should I perform several Gage R&R for every caliper to cover all specs range of use? Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 9
T Gage R&R study - Ordinal data Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 6
Q Gage Pin Sets? Calibrate/Verify them all or just a sample size? General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 22
S If 4 operate to measure, what is the value of k2?(MSA gage R&R) Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 1
S Faro Arm, Gage R&R Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 5
8 MSA--Should I Use Parts or Gage Pins? Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 2
C Gage Block Grade 1 - Calibration Measurement Uncertainty (MU) 15
R Gage Measuring 15 Parts at a Time Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 9
Q Gage calibration in disarray ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 12
M Gage R&R automated test equipment Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 5
PQ Systems Recipe for Success! 10 Ingredients for a Healthy Gage Management System Using GAGEpack Software 0
D Gage Repeatability for Faro Arm Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 3
S Comparing measurement results for a part from two ring gage General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 3
M Quick Gage R&R Question Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 9
PQ Systems Best Practices In Gage Management Using GAGEpack Software 0
PQ Systems Gage R&R - 3 Part Series Using GAGEpack Software 0
I Excel based Gage R&R VS Minitab calculation Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 5
R Repeatability Type 1 Gage and Gage R&R Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 4
W Proper gage to use for receiving inspection General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 9
A GAGE R&R Binomial with master list (for method validation) Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 0
Q Gage calibration / tracking software General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 5
A R chart from ANOVA gage R&R test Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 12
M Type 1 Gage r study Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 3
T Plug Gage Calibration Calibration and Metrology Software and Hardware 1
L Gage R&R TMV Acceptance Criteria Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 4
S MSA for attribute relation gage Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 3
E Zero part to part variation - Gage R&R project Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 15
M Gage R&R and right way to measure Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 16
L Gage RandR on automated equipment. IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 7
B Gage calibration frequency, ISO and IATF - What are the requirements Calibration Frequency (Interval) 3
D Difference between Test Method Validation and Gage R&R Qualification and Validation (including 21 CFR Part 11) 20
R Determining Uncertainty from Gage R&R Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 1
C Correct Calibration Method for Dial Depth Gage General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 6
C Gage Block Wringing General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 3
B Gage R&R with NDC=1 Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 19
S Type 1 Gage R&R or something else? Reliability Analysis - Predictions, Testing and Standards 6
G Should I perform Gage R&R only at the beginning of a new project? Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 6
V Thread Plug Gage Pitch GO Diameter out of spec AQL - Acceptable Quality Level 8
G Gage R&R - Where am I going wrong? Part of a FAIR submission (Aerospace) Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 2
R Gage R&R Excel templates Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 3

Similar threads

Top Bottom