Gage R&R for an On-Line Device - Continuous Monitoring Dew Point Sensor in a Furnace

G

GoKats78

#1
During a corporate audit the question was "Has a Gage R&R been conducted on the Continuous Monitoring Dew Point Sensor in the furnace?"

The answer was...No...

No one is sure how to conduct such an R&R on such a device...or if such a test is even needed.

Someone, please provide some insight!
 
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Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#2
Re: Gage R&R for an On-line device

During a corporate audit the question was "Has a Gage R&R been conducted on the Continuous Monitoring Dew Point Sensor in the furnace?"

The answer was...No...

No one is sure how to conduct such an R&R on such a device...or if such a test is even needed.

Someone, please provide some insight!
A few questions:

What was the reason for the audit?

Did any of the corporate auditors cite a specific requirement or did they feel that it was a "nice to have" thing?

Stijloor.
 
G

George Weiss

#3
Re: Gage R&R for an On-line device

Side-tracked:
I am obviously confused, and interested in this question/post/comment.
The dew point device I am familiar with is what reports the dew point in a refrigeration system like a refrigerator.
The temperature and humidity values which cause dew, like 100 R/H of warm breath in cold air.
The temperature at which 100 R/H occurs varies with water vapor concentration in the air.
I was not aware of the need for this monitoring in a furnace.
Is there a dew point of a specific metal vapor or other?
I would first determine if such a feature of the furnace was needed.
You commented that a gage R&R of the dew-point monitor has not been done.
In your development of the process using the furnace, was a gage R&R done?
Reviewing this, if it was completed might suggest something further.
Is/are there requirement(s) for gage R&R in your application? process Standard or other?
 
S

Sturmkind

#4
Re: Gage R&R for an On-Line Device - Continuous Monitoring Dew Point Sensor in a Furn

GoKats78;

There may be more of a need to establish validation of the in-line sensor rather than a formal GR&R. Over time the comparison of readings between the in-line sensor and an off-line sensor should be highly correlated. The mechanics for that are well summarized here: http://www.coleparmer.com/techinfo/...dewpoint-accuracy.htm&ID=973&referred_id=2730 and I have no vested interest whatsoever in these companies or web-sites.

Best of Luck!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
K

Kevin H

#5
Re: Gage R&R for an On-Line Device - Continuous Monitoring Dew Point Sensor in a Furn

George, many furnace processes used in heat treating metals utilize atmospheres generated either by mixing industrial gases such as nitrogen and hydogen, or nitrogen and other additives such as methanol and or natural gas. Other options include disassociating ammonia into nitrogen and hydrogen or cracking either natural gas or propane over a nickel catalyst at high temperatures - depending on conditions the reaction may be exothermic or endothermic. The gases produced are usually referred to by the name of the reaction.

One of the controls for these types of furnace atmospheres is the dewpoint in the furnace. This may be analyzed periodically using an instrument such as an Alnor dewpoint meter, or monitored continuously via an aoutomatic dewpoint measurement. Dew points will tell you if your atmosphere production equipment is operating properly, and can indicate if their is an air leak in the furnace that could affect final properties of the material being processed. This is true for both ferrous and non-ferrous parts.

Dew point control may be used while annealing, carburizing, and neutral hardening, and during sintering of PM parts. A typical dewpoint for the incoming industrial gas nitrogen would be -80 dgrees F. You won't see that in most furnaces, because many are belt or other types of furnace that operate at slight positive pressure to minimize infiltration of oxygen from the air surrounding the equipment. Their will be air infiltration, and some of the oxygen in the air will react with hydrogen in the furnace atmosphere to produce water vapor, which will increase the dew point in the furnace.

Having said all that, I'm not certain of any way to run a gage R & R on a continuous monitoring dew point instrument - I'd be more interested in the calibration and verification protocol, and corrective actions for variation from verification checks. If it got way out of calibration, you'd probably be producing bad parts from your process - oxide coatings, low hardness, poor sinter, etc.
 
D

dbzman

#6
Re: Gage R&R for an On-Line Device - Continuous Monitoring Dew Point Sensor in a Furn

Kevin is right on the money. Gage R&R is used to determine if a measurement device will have the capability of measuring a certain product. Is the device capable of measuring the product?
I would ask the auditor why he believes that the device should be evaluated using Gage R&R. Is this from a PPAP that was developed? Sometimes if you list a device in a PPAP the auditor will expect a gage R&R to be performed on it.
 
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