Gage R&R for Hardness Testers - Heat Treating Plant

D

dbzman

#1
Were are a Heat Treating plant and we use a number of Hrdness Testers in the Plant.

Is it possible to perform GR&R on Hardness Testers?

Hardness Testers make indentations on the part that can not be repeated exactly.

The hardness can vary from spot to spot on the part (although not by much).

Thoughts?

Opinions?

Thanks!:bonk:
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
N

noboxwine

#2
Sure ya can

I audited a Heat Treat facility a few moons back and they did indeed conduct an R & R for a Versitron Rockwell C tester on hardened tool steel. They treated 10 peices of flat stock and conducted the usual 3 x 3 x 10 R & R. Nothing that I saw was unusual about it. It satisfied me an an auditor and most importatly proved to them whether or not the measurement system was sound. No reason why this is any different from other measurement techniques. Hope this helps

:D
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Trusted Information Resource
#3
I suppose that as long as you understand that material variation is also included in the equation, then it can be done. If your results show that the R&R of the system is acceptable with that variation included, then it certainly would be OK without.

BTW, most R&R studies have material variation included anyway. Example: a sample of wire being measured with a micrometer will have variations in both diameter and roundness along its length.
 
A

Al Dyer

#4
Look at it as a benefit! If you have 10 heat treated samples each appraisor can measure on a slightly different part of the sample.

Also think that unless your going through 17025, the auditor might not even know what you are talking about.

The key is to identify, tag, keep lot numbers and the samples for future reference, this way if there is a problem you can identify it and prove your point.

Al...
 
A

Atul Khandekar

#5
Two thoughts:

1. If the variation in hardness from spot to spot is not very significant, you could consider them to be homogeneous samples and use Nested ANOVA method which is recommended for non-replicable testing.

2. Is it possible to get a 'standard' or 'certified' block of known hardness? e.g. NIST's Standard Reference Material catalog. (http://www.nist.gov/srm). This is likely bo be an expensive proposition.
 
D

dbzman

#6
Gage R&R for Hardness testers

Hello everyone!

Does anyone know if you can perform R&R studes on hardness testers?

If so, how is this done?


Thanks!


Mike W (Confused & abused)

:bonk:
 
N

noboxwine

#7
Yep

You sure can. It's like any other non-destructive measuring device.

I always did a 3 X 3 X 10 R & R.

3 people measuring 10 parts 3 different times. Plug the numbers into the sheet and thats its. Here's a groovy ready-to-use Excel sheet attached. Let us know if you need anything else and have a day



:cool:
 

Attachments

D

dbzman

#8
Question

Question.....

I was told that you could not do a R&R study on hardness testers because it is destructive and hard to repeat.

You can't test in the same spot as the other person.

Thanks for you help!

Mike W
 
N

noboxwine

#9
yeah--you cant penetrate the diamond or ball in exactly the same spot every time..... just the same way you cant meaure a diameter with calipers in exactly the same spot every time.... there is some variation in every measuring technique, but no more in hardness testing than any other application. i have done it with certified calibration blocks, sheet metal parts, hardned tool steel, etc...and had successful studies every time. give me a report on it !:bigwave:
 
D

dbzman

#10
GAGE R&R - Look what I got

We finished our study but the numbers are not what we expected.
We used 10 parts, two operators, and two trials.

We got an R&R of 85.58!

We then took a secound study, added it to the first, and got an average.

When we used this number we got an R&R of 82.55

What have we done that is wrong? We know that we have the proper hardness testers for the part. All of the readings were within specification.

Should I do this with ANOVA instead(because of the nature of the study)?

If so, is there a spread sheet that I could use for ANOVA available?

Thanks!

Mike W :bonk: :bonk:
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
D ISO 6508-2 and Hardness Gage Testers - Apostrophes where I expect a decimal point Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 1
P Micro Hardness Tester Gage R&R Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 6
K Gage R&R - Rockwell Scale - Hardness using Standard Test blocks Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 5
D Gage R&R - Destructive Test - Pharmaceutical industry - Tablet hardness Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 7
Geoff Cotton Vickers hardness testing - Gage R&R Study for Hardness m/c Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 11
PastorBee13 Attribute Gage R&R with no bad samples Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 3
H Air Pressure Gage Calibration General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 6
M Spot Weld Nugget - MSA Gage R&R Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 2
D Gage type and data base maintainence Using GAGEpack Software 2
F Should I perform several Gage R&R for every caliper to cover all specs range of use? Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 9
T Gage R&R study - Ordinal data Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 6
Q Gage Pin Sets? Calibrate/Verify them all or just a sample size? General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 22
S If 4 operate to measure, what is the value of k2?(MSA gage R&R) Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 1
S Faro Arm, Gage R&R Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 5
8 MSA--Should I Use Parts or Gage Pins? Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 2
C Gage Block Grade 1 - Calibration Measurement Uncertainty (MU) 15
R Gage Measuring 15 Parts at a Time Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 9
Q Gage calibration in disarray ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 12
M Gage R&R automated test equipment Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 5
PQ Systems Recipe for Success! 10 Ingredients for a Healthy Gage Management System Using GAGEpack Software 0
D Gage Repeatability for Faro Arm Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 3
S Comparing measurement results for a part from two ring gage General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 3
M Quick Gage R&R Question Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 9
PQ Systems Best Practices In Gage Management Using GAGEpack Software 0
PQ Systems Gage R&R - 3 Part Series Using GAGEpack Software 0
I Excel based Gage R&R VS Minitab calculation Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 5
R Repeatability Type 1 Gage and Gage R&R Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 4
W Proper gage to use for receiving inspection General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 9
A GAGE R&R Binomial with master list (for method validation) Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 0
Q Gage calibration / tracking software General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 5
A R chart from ANOVA gage R&R test Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 12
M Type 1 Gage r study Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 3
T Plug Gage Calibration Calibration and Metrology Software and Hardware 1
L Gage R&R TMV Acceptance Criteria Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 4
S MSA for attribute relation gage Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 3
E Zero part to part variation - Gage R&R project Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 15
M Gage R&R and right way to measure Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 16
L Gage RandR on automated equipment. IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 7
B Gage calibration frequency, ISO and IATF - What are the requirements Calibration Frequency (Interval) 3
D Difference between Test Method Validation and Gage R&R Qualification and Validation (including 21 CFR Part 11) 20
R Determining Uncertainty from Gage R&R Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 1
C Correct Calibration Method for Dial Depth Gage General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 6
C Gage Block Wringing General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 3
B Gage R&R with NDC=1 Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 19
S Type 1 Gage R&R or something else? Reliability Analysis - Predictions, Testing and Standards 6
G Should I perform Gage R&R only at the beginning of a new project? Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 6
V Thread Plug Gage Pitch GO Diameter out of spec AQL - Acceptable Quality Level 8
G Gage R&R - Where am I going wrong? Part of a FAIR submission (Aerospace) Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 2
R Gage R&R Excel templates Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 3
K Gage R&R with more than 3 appraisers Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 2

Similar threads

Top Bottom