Gage R&R studies and control plan for PPAP - Critical or Significant characteristics?

L

Luis Alves

#1
#1
Hi

The R & R studies, should be made to all equipment's refereed in the control plane, or only the ones that measure critical or significant characterises



------------------
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
C

Chad Eilers

#2
#2
Only measurement systems used on the "key / sinifigant characteristics" must have Gage R&R studies done on them. However, some auditors would LIKE to see them done on all, but it is not required.
 
Howard Atkins

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#3
#3
I am sorry to dissapoint you but 4.11.4
Appropriate statistical studies shall be conducted to analyze the variation.........This requirement shall apply to measurement syatems referenced in the control plan.
 
L

Luis Alves

#4
#4
Ok

All measurement systems referenced in the control plan, should have appropriate statistics studies, but if a study is made for a measurer system, for instance a calliper, this study is valid to that measurement system although it is use in a lot of control plans?


------------------
 
B

Batman

#5
#5
Hi Luis:

We have used the same results from a measurement system study for other areas, as long as we determined that the methodology was the same. Likewise, we have used one 0-6" caliper and applied the results to other areas that use 0-6" calipers, wven if they are not the exact same calipers.

You should be careful when determining when to do this. If you have 8 stations and 8 sets of identical measurement devices, measuring like features, you could decide to only use a couple of these for the R&R determination.

Also, the actual R&R result - the actual error, not the % of tolerance result - could be applied to another tolerance on another part, again if the measurement ssytem is similar enough.
 
L

Lassitude

#6
#6
I agree with this for EV not AV. Let's say you have a caliper with an R&R on a part dimension from part X measuring 10.0 mm. It is a flat, easy to measure dimension on a piece. Then, with the same instrument, you measure a 'hard to reach' dimension on another part of 0.5 mm. While the EV should remain approximately the same (though different part of the equipment range), AV can vary significantly.
 
A

ALM

#7
#7
What I am interested in, and heard a bit about at a training class for MSA...

How much stock in the Gage R&R studies can their be? I mean, for instance, if I am measuring a part that is 108mm X 25mm, and it is a pressure-sensitive fabric... it isn't REALLY possible to expect that three people using vernier calipers are going to measure each of 10 parts in EXACTLY the same spot as each has previously measured... let alone one person to the next.

Think about it... that type of "exactness" is a requirement of an effective measurement system study... or was I misinformed? If I measure the 25mm dimension on the left-third of the part on one pass, the middle on the second, and the right on the third... how does that truly impact the result?

Thoughts? Comments?

ALM
 
L

Lassitude

#10
#10
In the case of the pressure sensitive cloth, measurement equipment and techniques should have been looked at during the early design phase. If the measurement is important you would pick a measurement instrument appropriate for the material and conditions. A calipers probably wouldn't be the best tool for material. The point is to find out whether it's even worth taking a measurement. Let's say the gage R&R is 25%AV and 30%EV - that's 50% of your tolerance. Now the question becomes whether your measurement means anything or not.

Gage R&Rs are a tool - no more and no less. There is also the aspect of measurement uncertainty to consider.

Don't read into this any more than is here. For example, there are alturnatives to Gage R&R - but you have to be ready to justify why you use what ever tool you use. Gage R&Rs do not make sense for every measurement condition. Automotive just happens to not know much else.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
L Gage R&R studies for identical Devices - Need to confirm the requirement to perform them Reliability Analysis - Predictions, Testing and Standards 2
D Do we need normal data for gage r&r studies? Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 5
A Does an attribute study (Go/NoGo pin gage) need two studies (1 for each pin) Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 1
S Establishing a Gage R&R Studies Program in a Testing Laboratory Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 1
J How to select pieces for GR&R (Gage R&R) Studies? Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 5
I Gage R&R Studies For Small Set of Data With Varied Known Value Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 1
B Gauge to Gauge (Gage) Studies Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 17
J Nested Gage R&R - Studies on Crimp Fastener Tools Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 4
J Gage R&R studies with 5 appraisers and K constants Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 6
S Gage R&R Studies - Part that has 10-20 critical dimensions Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 11
CalRich GR&R (Gage R&R) - How many studies? Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 14
M Gage R&R Short Study vs. Long Study vs. Other Studies Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 25
S p-Value(s) for Anova (Crossed) GRR (Gage R&R) Studies Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 7
J Attribute Gage Studies - What gages are required to have Measurement Systems Analysis IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
K Complying with Ford customer requirement 4.35 Variable Gage Studies General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 3
R Destructive Attribute Gage Studies - inserted/pressed in parts Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 6
S Attribute GR&R (Gage R&R) Studies for Metal Stampers Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 12
T Gage R&R studies for Destructive Test Devices (pull and push tests) Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 5
A Pin Gage - Gage R&R Studies - One Pin or Entire Set? Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 2
P Long and Short (Variable Data) Gage Studies - Urgent Help needed Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 5
M Justification for not doing Gage R&R Studies Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 12
S Gage R&R Studies - 1200 operators, 2000 measurement tapes and many characteristics Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 5
C Gage R&R Studies Excel .xls spreadsheet Excel .xls Spreadsheet Templates and Tools 7
ScottK Gage R&R experts please review these studies Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 6
Antonio Vieira Gage R&R Studies for Attribute Data? Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 7
R "Gauge (Gage) R&R Studies per MSA Manual" - Customer Audit Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 13
R Minitab Gage R Studies Using Minitab Software 2
J Gage R&R study requirements - What dimensions are you doing studies on? Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 9
L Identifying Common Pitfalls in GR&R (Gage R&R) Studies - Measurement System Analysis Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 29
C Gage R&R studies studies through the full range of the gage? General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 8
T Gage R&R studies for Spectrophotometer & Gloss Meters General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 32
T TS 16949 Requirements: Frequency of Gage R&R Studies Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 4
T Gage R&R studies used in uncertainty calculations Measurement Uncertainty (MU) 2
D Measurement System Analysis (MSA) - Requirement to also do gage stability studies? Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 1
L Gage R&R Studies - Goodness of fit, linearity and linearity percentage Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 1
R Gage R&R Studies for Process Monitoring Instruments? Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 4
P What gage studies are required for PPAP? APQP and PPAP 5
R Guardbands - Using Gage Studies to define a guardband Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 1
K Gage R&R with more than 3 appraisers Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 2
Anerol C Gage R&R Template AIAG 4th Edition IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
T Attributes SPC study - Attributive control (Go gage) Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 5
S Capability or Gage R&R Study for Leak Tester? Reliability Analysis - Predictions, Testing and Standards 15
N % Tolerance - Type 1 study on the gages, then a gage R&R (ANOVA) Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 4
M Definitive answer on Type 1 vs Type 2 vs Type 3 Gage Study Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 0
V Gage Management and Gage R&R Software General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 1
D Gage R&R Study on Load Cells - Large chemical blending tanks IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 1
B Minitab Type 1 Gage Study on True Position Question Measurement Uncertainty (MU) 1
S Gage R&R on alloy Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 10
8 Need Help - Runout - Function Gage Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 7
G Stab Pin Size For Check Gage Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 3
Similar threads
Top Bottom