Gage R&R's on automatic gages with robots

K

kat.k.

#1
Does anyone know anything about performing gage R&R's on auto gages with robots?

We perform R&R's on variable gages such as micorometers, calipers, timing fixtures etc. as per MSA. Since we wrote our Measurement System Analysis Standard years ago, we implemented auto gages with robots that measure. The robot and computer does all the work. The operator only loads the belt. The computer calculates the R&R and we have been transferring the readings onto our R&R form. We're not exactly following our procedure.

Should we be doing something different on these R&R's. Do I need to revise our standard to reflect these auto gages? How do I meet the MSA standard?

Thank you
Kat
 
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#2
Re: gage R&R's on auto gages with robots

You will probably need to update your procedures regardless.

I have several questions about your auto gaging process.

  1. Is there any possibility that the way the operator loads the belt could influence the measured result? If there is, you should still include operator in the R&R study.
  2. Do you have more than one robot, fixture and/or gage measuring the same characteristic? If you do, these also affect Reproducibility. They may be introduced in place of the operator to measure Reproducibility robot-to-robot, nest-to-nest or gage-to-gage. They may also be evaluated using an Iso-plot (Youden Plot).
  3. If the answers to 1 and 2 are both no, you can focus on repeatability only. This essentially involves taking repeated measurements on you parts (if they can be reintroduced into the automated measurement device. I recommend increasing the number of trials and parts from the standard 10/3/3 to make up for having 1 operator (robot/gage).
 
K

kat.k.

#3
Re: Gage R&R's on auto gages with robots

To answer your questions

1. I believe there is a possiblilty in the way the operator loads the belt/fixture that would influence the result.

2. Our auto gages only have one robot/gage measuring per auto gage but may have multiple fixtures.

Is there something in MSA for gage R&R on automated equipment where the appraiser and equipment are one in the same?

The QE that works on these auto gages says - The operator is just loading the automation station; the automation is actually loading the gage stations??

Thank you
Kat
 

Miner

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#4
Re: Gage R&R's on auto gages with robots

To answer your questions

1. I believe there is a possiblilty in the way the operator loads the belt/fixture that would influence the result.

The QE that works on these auto gages says - The operator is just loading the automation station; the automation is actually loading the gage stations??
Okay, you should be able to eliminate the operator from consideration.

2. Our auto gages only have one robot/gage measuring per auto gage but may have multiple fixtures.

Is there something in MSA for gage R&R on automated equipment where the appraiser and equipment are one in the same?
In this situation Reproducibility is the fixture to fixture Reproducibility. Perform the MSA study as you would normally, but substitute the fixtures for operators. If there is an operator*part interaction, it would actually be a fixture*part interaction.
 
B

brahmaiah

#5
Re: Gage R&R's on auto gages with robots

Does anyone know anything about performing gage R&R's on auto gages with robots?

We perform R&R's on variable gages such as micorometers, calipers, timing fixtures etc. as per MSA. Since we wrote our Measurement System Analysis Standard years ago, we implemented auto gages with robots that measure. The robot and computer does all the work. The operator only loads the belt. The computer calculates the R&R and we have been transferring the readings onto our R&R form. We're not exactly following our procedure.

Should we be doing something different on these R&R's. Do I need to revise our standard to reflect these auto gages? How do I meet the MSA standard?

Thank you
Kat
It is easier for you.Appriser variation doesnot apply to you.Your gauge RR tolerance is 5% instead of 10% .. It may be increased to 15% in special cases.
MSA manual needs to be revised to accomodate Robot gauges.
V.J.Brahmaiah
 

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#6
Re: Gage R&R's on auto gages with robots

It is easier for you.Appriser variation doesnot apply to you.Your gauge RR tolerance is 5% instead of 10% .. It may be increased to 15% in special cases.
MSA manual needs to be revised to accomodate Robot gauges.
V.J.Brahmaiah
Please post your sources for stating this. You do not simply cut the acceptance criteria in half because there is no Reproducibility.
 
B

brahmaiah

#7
Re: Gage R&R's on auto gages with robots

Please post your sources for stating this. You do not simply cut the acceptance criteria in half because there is no Reproducibility.
It is pure common sense.You can convince any auditor by this.Because your problem is not covered in MSA manual.
How else can you solve your problem? You cannot just sit crying about it.
V.J.Brahmaiah
 

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#8
Re: Gage R&R's on auto gages with robots

It is pure common sense.You can convince any auditor by this.Because your problem is not covered in MSA manual.
How else can you solve your problem? You cannot just sit crying about it.
V.J.Brahmaiah
I would not call this common sense, the OP was not "crying" about anything. He asked a reasonable question about a topic that is not well covered by the MSA manual.

A helpful answer would be to advise him how to handle this situation in a logical manner not to arbitrarily cut the acceptance criteria in half just because there is no Reproducibility component. This does not help him deal with the situation. And yes, you would not have a problem convincing an auditor in this situation because the customer is not at risk. The OP, on the other hand, might have unnecessarily spent a lot of money on a new gage.

If you can state a reference for your recommendation or a statistically logical basis for it, I would be happy to discuss it further.
 
B

brahmaiah

#9
Re: Gage R&R's on auto gages with robots

I would not call this common sense, the OP was not "crying" about anything. He asked a reasonable question about a topic that is not well covered by the MSA manual.

A helpful answer would be to advise him how to handle this situation in a logical manner not to arbitrarily cut the acceptance criteria in half just because there is no Reproducibility component. This does not help him deal with the situation. And yes, you would not have a problem convincing an auditor in this situation because the customer is not at risk. The OP, on the other hand, might have unnecessarily spent a lot of money on a new gage.

If you can state a reference for your recommendation or a statistically logical basis for it, I would be happy to discuss it further.
Dear friend ,cannot you see the logical basis for my assertion? Out of 'REPRODUCIBILITY' and 'REPEATABILITY' your robot does not have the problem of 'REPRODUCIBILITY'.It means 50% of your error is eliniminated.Logically you cannot claim 50% of the tolerance on Gauge RR which was the share of 'REPRODUCIBILITY'.
You are free to ignore my suggestion.Or else come out with the right answer and educate me.It is all in good spirit.
V.J.Brahmaiah:agree:
 

Miner

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#10
Re: Gage R&R's on auto gages with robots

Dear friend ,cannot you see the logical basis for my assertion? Out of 'REPRODUCIBILITY' and 'REPEATABILITY' your robot does not have the problem of 'REPRODUCIBILITY'.It means 50% of your error is eliniminated.Logically you cannot claim 50% of the tolerance on Gauge RR which was the share of 'REPRODUCIBILITY'.
You are free to ignore my suggestion.Or else come out with the right answer and educate me.It is all in good spirit.
V.J.Brahmaiah:agree:
So what you are saying is that if you reduce your process variation by 50% percent, you follow up by reducing your inspection tolerances by 50%?

I am sorry, but that is not logical, and I do not recommend it.
 
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