Gage R&R's on automatic gages with robots

B

brahmaiah

#11
Re: Gage R&R's on auto gages with robots

So what you are saying is that if you reduce your process variation by 50% percent, you follow up by reducing your inspection tolerances by 50%?

I am sorry, but that is not logical, and I do not recommend it.
Robots donot need big tolerances.They have to work with better precision.
V.J.Brahmaiah
 
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M

Mr.Cigi

#12
Re: Gage R&R's on auto gages with robots

Okay, you should be able to eliminate the operator from consideration.

In this situation Reproducibility is the fixture to fixture Reproducibility. Perform the MSA study as you would normally, but substitute the fixtures for operators. If there is an operator*part interaction, it would actually be a fixture*part interaction.
:bigwave:
I have a similar situation, There are Automatical Measurement Machine which measuring diameter, length, distance and other by a camera system.
The machine have multiple devices, but only to put parts into machine ; Not to control/measure parts.

So can I carry out a R&R study considering ONE operator ?
Should we make 3 measures by part ?
 
P

prototyper

#13
Re: Gage R&R's on auto gages with robots

Dear friend ,cannot you see the logical basis for my assertion? Out of 'REPRODUCIBILITY' and 'REPEATABILITY' your robot does not have the problem of 'REPRODUCIBILITY'.It means 50% of your error is eliniminated.Logically you cannot claim 50% of the tolerance on Gauge RR which was the share of 'REPRODUCIBILITY'.
You are free to ignore my suggestion.Or else come out with the right answer and educate me.It is all in good spirit.
V.J.Brahmaiah:agree:
The purpose of a MSA or R&R study is to determine the guages suitability for the measurement application. The widely agreed acceptance criteria is 10% R&R (up to 30% in certain circumstances), just because the reproducibility component is zero does not mean that the acceptance criteria need be changed.
A measurement system can have good repeatibility but poor reproducibility and still give an acceptable 10% R&R. Similarly it can have good reproducibility but poor repeatibility and be OK.
Nowhere is it stated that reproducibility must be less than 5% or that repeatibility must be less than 5%.
 

Miner

Forum Moderator
Staff member
Admin
#14
Re: Gage R&R's on auto gages with robots

:bigwave:
I have a similar situation, There are Automatical Measurement Machine which measuring diameter, length, distance and other by a camera system.
The machine have multiple devices, but only to put parts into machine ; Not to control/measure parts.

So can I carry out a R&R study considering ONE operator ?
Should we make 3 measures by part ?
You said that the machine has multiple devices that put parts into the machine. Is there any possibility that differences in loading by these devices could affect the measurement?

If the possibility exists, use the devices in place of operators in the study. Reproducibility would represent the device to device Reproducibility.

If the possibility does not exist, you can perform the study with one operator.

I recommend that the study consist of approximately 90 total measurements. This can be a combination of parts and repeated measurements (e.g., 30 parts x 3 trials; 45 parts x 2 trials, etc.)
 

bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
Trusted Information Resource
#15
Robots do not need big tolerances.They have to work with better precision.
Well, that sure depends on your definition of a "robot". If you do not need tight tolerances, you may have a simple pick and place with a probe - might even be go/no go.

Besides, most robots are not gages - they have gages attached. They participate in the overall error (total variation), they are part of a gaging system - just as an operator, the environment and the part are.

...It means 50% of your error is eliminated.
If I give you 100 things and say I won't take away 50 of them because I don't need them...do you only have 50 left to worry about? Or do you still have 100? :confused: GRR is based on participation of error - either within or between. You could have within participate 100%! Or visa-versa! You cannot guarantee you only have half.
 
E

equesnel

#16
Hello Everyone,

This is my first formal reply to a message thread on the Cove. This topic is a near and dear topic to me as well. We just implemented a Electric Meter Assembly line around $5Million, which includes may Staubli robots.

We recently completed a MSA Study surrounding one of our Systems. We selected different Pallets entering into the Fixtures to represent the operator influence.

The pallet to fixture interface could have possibly caused Reproduciblity and Repeatability issues, so this was why this item was selected.

I would suggest listing items that could potentially cause Reproducibility and Repeatability issues within the process such as trays, fixtures, pallets, etc. Make a fishbone chart of the factors of influence (possibly??).

It is becoming a much different manufacturing environment with increased pressures to reduce labor cost and increase efficiencies mandating the implementation of more robots to acheive goals - the opportunties to complete GR&R's with True Operators (People) will continue to decrease I am afraid.

Please feel free to comment or add to my thoughts. Hope there is some value here.:whip: (I Like the Whip!!)

I am glad this forum is here, as I use it almost daily.

Sincerely,
Eric Quesnel
 

bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
Trusted Information Resource
#17
We recently completed a MSA Study surrounding one of our Systems. We selected different Pallets entering into the Fixtures to represent the operator influence.
:agree1: If applicable, this is a good thing to do!

I would suggest listing items that could potentially cause Reproducibility and Repeatability issues within the process such as trays, fixtures, pallets, etc. Make a fishbone chart of the factors of influence (possibly??).
:agree1: Good suggestion. It is always a good idea to stop and think (not plug and chug) before running these evaluations. Good thoughts! :applause:
 

Miner

Forum Moderator
Staff member
Admin
#18
Hello Everyone,

This is my first formal reply to a message thread on the Cove. This topic is a near and dear topic to me as well. We just implemented a Electric Meter Assembly line around $5Million, which includes may Staubli robots.

I am glad this forum is here, as I use it almost daily.

Sincerely,
Eric Quesnel
Eric,
Welcome to a more active role. This was an excellent first post! Don't be shy. Keep it up.
 
B

brahmaiah

#19
The lively discussion I Churned BY proposing 1/2 tolerance in GRR was interesting.I take the disagreements objectively and futher explore the problem.
V.J.Brahmaiah
 
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