Good Auditors - What is the benefit I get from NC & OFI

B

berseak

#1
I never seen the good auditor.

When I recive NC or OFI from CB. I think beside meets requirement. What is benifit I get form NC & OFI.

If you have experence pls show & Share.

Thank you.
 
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S

samsung

#2
Re: Good Auditors - What is benefit I get from NC & OFI

I never seen the good auditor.

When I recive NC or OFI from CB. I think beside meets requirement. What is benifit I get form NC & OFI.

If you have experence pls show & Share.

Thank you.
There's an excellent response from Jennifer which was though posted in response to an OHSAS related query but fits well for any kind of audit.

Here's the link.

You may also wish to go through a paper produced by John Broomfield. It's very good and you can find it here.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#3
Re: Good Auditors - What is benefit I get from NC & OFI

I never seen the good auditor.

When I recive NC or OFI from CB. I think beside meets requirement. What is benifit I get form NC & OFI.

If you have experence pls show & Share.

Thank you.
What part of the world are you in? It seems that auditing is being done differently in different parts of the world, and perhaps someone who's in your country or region could help.
 
M

Markaich

#4
Re: Good Auditors - What is benefit I get from NC & OFI

I must admit I get slightly stressed with the 'I get no value from my CB auditor, only NCRs and OFIs'

Firstly, a CB auditor is not there to improve an organisation's management system, that's the organisation's job...take a look at Cl 8.5.1 of ISO 9001. In fact, a number of discussion I either follow or contribute to condem the auditor for acting as consultant, rightly so...that's not what we pay them for.

The value that a CB auditor can add is to point out weaknesses in the organisation's management system. By raising NCRs, the auditor is highlighting an instance where his interpretation does not match the organisation's...this is an opportunity to rethink the system and potentially improve it. If there is no NC then the organisation can present objective evidence to support its claim...if they can't present objective evidence, then it is very likely that a NC exists and needs to be dealth with.

Another way an auditor can add value is to bring his experience to bear and point out ways in which a task may be done differently and more effectively or efficiently...they can also point out areas where there is a risk that a NC will occur.

Using 'audit results' and 'corrective and preventive actions' is the responsibility of the organisation to improve their management systems, not the auditor's; the auditor can provide the input to the improvement process; this is the value they add...

oh, and the certificate at the end of course.

Just a point of view,
M
 
T

tomvehoski

#5
Re: Good Auditors - What is benefit I get from NC & OFI

I must admit I get slightly stressed with the 'I get no value from my CB auditor, only NCRs and OFIs'

Firstly, a CB auditor is not there to improve an organisation's management system, that's the organisation's job...take a look at Cl 8.5.1 of ISO 9001. In fact, a number of discussion I either follow or contribute to condem the auditor for acting as consultant, rightly so...that's not what we pay them for.

<snip>

Another way an auditor can add value is to bring his experience to bear and point out ways in which a task may be done differently and more effectively or efficiently...they can also point out areas where there is a risk that a NC will occur.

<snip>

oh, and the certificate at the end of course.

Just a point of view,
M
Aren't your two statements in direct conflict? Pointing out ways to do something different/better IS consulting.

NCs and OFIs from a CB audit might give you some points to target for improvement, or they might cause you more grief and send you off in directions you should not go. It all depends on the quality/expertise of the auditor, and that is difficult to judge.

I am no longer a fan of the third party certification scheme. At best I think of CB auditors as weak consultants. Sure they might give me some good ideas (even though they are really not allowed to), but they also might waste my time with non-expert advice. They also come at a very high hourly rate.
 

Ninja

Looking for Reality
Staff member
Super Moderator
#6
Re: Good Auditors - What is benefit I get from NC & OFI

Aren't your two statements in direct conflict? Pointing out ways to do something different/better IS consulting.
You make a valid point, but I don't think the two statements are in direct conflict. I pay to be told where I am not in compliance...not how to do my job better. It is not consulting on how to do better, it is a third party measurement of where I'm not good enough.

I truly dislike being audited. The company pays a person to come in and find weaknesses in systems that I built, then tell my colleagues (who are involved in CARs) and my management where the weak points are. I dislike audits because I want to believe that my systems have no weaknesses and the auditor makes me face the truth...there are weaknesses.

But the auditor adds the value of pointing out where my systems can be better (by pointing out where they are weak). They do this not by comparing my system to one they might come up with, but to a set and published (objective) standard. I truly dislike being audited, but my systems (and thus I) benefit from it.

When I get audited, the auditor often knows bupkiss (sp?) about my system or the goal of it in terms of customer technical application. He may give unsolicited advice on how to technically do it better but has no authority to force a technical change or to ding me for recognizing he doesn't know what he's talking about. He does have the right to point out where I do not follow the standard, and to force that change to follow the standard.

If I didn't care about certification, I wouldn't pay to be certified and I certainly wouldn't pay to have someone come in and tell me where I'm weak. Since I do care to certified, I get over my dislike of the audit and focus on the opportunities to improve. If a suggestion from an auditor makes no improvement in the system, I simply document why it is not implemented. If my system is truly in conflict with the standard, and I want to stay certified, I change the system to be in compliance (typically record keeping).

Auditors add value in a way that I do not prefer...that is not at all saying that they don't add value. If the auditor insists on changes that do not reflect coming into compliance with the standard, you can appeal, or make the case for a new auditor. Focusing on how the business can be improved through this ego-reducing process helps to keep it tolerable. Focusing on how I feel after the audit only leads to frustration and heartburn

Keep your eyes on the prize...not the person you pay to find your faults. Finding fault can have value if it is used judiciously. (Note that the prize is sustained profit...not a certificate hanging on the wall)

:2cents:
 
Last edited:

Antonio Vieira

Involved - Posts
Trusted Information Resource
#7
Re: Good Auditors - What is benefit I get from NC & OFI

In fact, this is a problem that we can find here!
The level of knoledge of QMS auditors is being reduced every year.
Why?
Simply because CB's are trying to cut costs and choosing cheaper auditors (with few experience).
That's why organizations are not earning any value added in having CB's audits every year!!!
I believe that, here and now, there are more companies cuting ISO 9001 registration than companies entering on this field.
 

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#8
Re: Good Auditors - What is benefit I get from NC & OFI

In fact, this is a problem that we can find here!
The level of knoledge of QMS auditors is being reduced every year.
Why?
Simply because CB's are trying to cut costs and choosing cheaper auditors (with few experience).
That's why organizations are not earning any value added in having CB's audits every year!!!
I believe that, here and now, there are more companies cuting ISO 9001 registration than companies entering on this field.
On the other hand, I think that for some standards ( for example ISO TS, TL9000 and also others such Energy one), the request for certification could increase in the next years.
Clearly this is strictly linked with the improvement of the industrial sectior, expecially automobile and communications.:bigwave:
 
#9
Re: Good Auditors - What is benefit I get from NC & OFI

In fact, this is a problem that we can find here!
The level of knoledge of QMS auditors is being reduced every year.
Why?
Simply because CB's are trying to cut costs and choosing cheaper auditors (with few experience).
That's why organizations are not earning any value added in having CB's audits every year!!!
I believe that, here and now, there are more companies cuting ISO 9001 registration than companies entering on this field.
This may be a specific country/market related issue, so to make such sweeping generalizations is a little dangerous, given that readers come from all around the world. It doesn't represent the entire picture, as I'm sure you may be aware.
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#10
Re: Good Auditors - What is benefit I get from NC & OFI

In fact, this is a problem that we can find here!
The level of knowledge of QMS auditors is being reduced every year.
Why?
Simply because CB's are trying to cut costs and choosing cheaper auditors (with few experience).
That's why organizations are not earning any value added in having CB's audits every year!!!
I believe that, here and now, there are more companies cutting ISO 9001 registration than companies entering on this field.
António,

Are speaking about what's going on in your country Portugal?

Any sources you can cite?

Thanks!

Stijloor.
 
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