Google Apps vs. Wiki for ISO 9001 documentation

K

kdjohannes

#11
That's really good to know that you are using G Suite! Makes me feel better actually. Thanks for the really fast reply. I found this thread and joined the forum and I've already a lot of the information helpful!

You may have convinced me that using the G Docs feature (versus just using Word docs uploading to Drive) is more convenient that I thought. The collaboration seems like it would be close to a wiki.

Question: It seems that Drive doesn't store revisions for very long. Only 30 days if I'm not mistaken. Is this okay for ISO 9001? And it also doesn't show what edits were made, you have to download it - is that correct? How does that work for audits or just your own curiosity in looking to see what's changed?
 
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C

Capybara

#12
The limited revision history you mention isn't correct with respect to revisions inside a Google Doc.

Remember, you are not revising a document offline and then uploading a new file to Drive. You have one Google Doc existing on drive, which you revise as needed and the revision history is maintained in the document.

I just looked at a Google Doc on my drive that hadn't been revised for 3+ years and all the old revision history was still there. I believe the revision history is maintained forever.

I find G Suite generally more pleasant to use than Office, especially Docs over Word. The only exception is Excel, which is still better than Google Sheets.
 

Mark Meer

Trusted Information Resource
#13
Question: It seems that Drive doesn't store revisions for very long. Only 30 days if I'm not mistaken. Is this okay for ISO 9001? And it also doesn't show what edits were made, you have to download it - is that correct? How does that work for audits or just your own curiousity in looking to see what's changed?
Wiki & G-Docs revision history is handy for traceability purposes (if you want to know what was changed when, and by whom), but I would suggest against using this as your officially cited revision level for controlled documents, for 2 reasons: 1) difficult to integrate any system of review and approval; and 2) you end up with a huge number of revisions!

Whether using a wiki or G-doc, I'd suggest the following approach:

  1. Authorized manager sets access permissions so that all controlled documents are read-only.
  2. Controlled documents have a header with a revision-level and effective-date.
  3. When a document needs to be changed, a COPY of the controlled one is created, and permissions are set so that only authorized contributors can access and edit.
  4. Draft documents are worked on until all changes are done.
  5. Final draft gets reviewed and approved.
  6. Revision level and effective date in the header are updated.
  7. Permissions are set so that the new version is now accessible to all users (read-only), and the previous version is moved to a hidden archive folder/space.

Just a suggestion. This system works quite well for us.
MM.
 
C

Capybara

#14
I agree in part and disagree in part. My comments in red.

  1. Authorized manager sets access permissions so that all controlled documents are read-only. - Agreed (in part - except for authorized editors).
  2. Controlled documents have a header with a revision-level and effective-date. Agreed.

  3. When a document needs to be changed, a COPY of the controlled one is created, and permissions are set so that only authorized contributors can access and edit. Strongly disagree. Don't make a copy. This screws up all the inter-document links and you have to manually revision mark instead of having G Suite do the work for you. G Suite has an option to show only significant revisions; also, we maintain a revision history for ISO and AS 9100 compliance, but we never look at it in actual practice. It is the current document that is important.

  4. Draft documents are worked on until all changes are done. Agreed; use the G Suite commenting functions

  5. Final draft gets reviewed and approved.Agreed
  6. Revision level and effective date in the header are updated. Agreed

  7. Permissions are set so that the new version is now accessible to all users (read-only), and the previous version is moved to a hidden archive folder/space. Disagree - don't make a copy!
 

Mark Meer

Trusted Information Resource
#15
Disagree - don't make a copy!
Curious: if you don't make a copy, then what is the state of the controlled document while it's being revised?

Can users still view/use the document it as it's being modified (and prior to it being approved)? If so, it's not controlled in this state.

The purpose of making a copy is so that:
  • Users can continue to use the controlled version while the new one is being worked on.
  • Draft documents are only accessible to authorized contributors.

With respect to maintaining inter-document links, my suggestions for the final steps is not precisely what we do. After being reviewed and approved, a PDF is archived of the old revision, and then it's contents are overwritten with the new contents. This maintains all the links in Confluence...not sure if it'd work with G-Docs, but in theory I don't see why it wouldn't...

MM.
 
K

kdjohannes

#16
I just looked at a Google Doc on my drive that hadn't been revised for 3+ years and all the old revision history was still there. I believe the revision history is maintained forever.

I find G Suite generally more pleasant to use than Office, especially Docs over Word. The only exception is Excel, which is still better than Google Sheets.
Yes, that makes sense in using the G Docs versus savings a Word Doc. I now see the revision history inside a G Doc - didn't before. They are more detailed than the Word revisions as well. I'll have to convince co-workers and superiors that using D Docs may be the way to go. We are married to Word and all of our templates.

-Authorized manager sets access permissions so that all controlled documents are read-only.
-When a document needs to be changed, a COPY of the controlled one is created, and permissions are set so that only authorized contributors can access and edit.
-Final draft gets reviewed and approved.
-Permissions are set so that the new version is now accessible to all users (read-only), and the previous version is moved to a hidden archive folder/space.

MM.
Not sure how Confluence works as I don't have experience with it. But in comparing to a wiki, amount of revisions don't matter! A wiki has an unlimited list of revisions on an article.

We are trying to avoud the funnel of having a moderator and limiting edit permissions. Right now we need to get things recorded as it is all tribal. We need everyone to help with this and if we regulate it like you said, no one will be empowered to contribute because of the moderator controlling it all.

Disagree - don't make a copy!
[/LIST]
I agree with Capybara on this. Wiki's do not make copies and live versions of the document are used still. There is also the ability for the user to simply go to the last known revision and work off that one.

Curious: if you don't make a copy, then what is the state of the controlled document while it's being revised?

Can users still view/use the document it as it's being modified (and prior to it being approved)? If so, it's not controlled in this state.

The purpose of making a copy is so that:
  • Users can continue to use the controlled version while the new one is being worked on.
  • Draft documents are only accessible to authorized contributors.

With respect to maintaining inter-document links, my suggestions for the final steps is not precisely what we do. After being reviewed and approved, a PDF is archived of the old revision, and then it's contents are overwritten with the new contents. This maintains all the links in Confluence...not sure if it'd work with G-Docs, but in theory I don't see why it wouldn't...

MM.
We have the issue now of having duplicate procedures, some Word docs and some PDFs. It is impossible to know which revision is current. Especially when someone did not follow the procedure of changing the title, etc. Not to mention revisions are way to difficult to track - it's all manual. So making duplicates in different formats will not work for us. Glad it's working for you and that you have a system though!

Now on the topic of "controlled documents" what is the ISO requirement? I've been researching but we are a long way off, but also want to make sure we are starting on the right path, so when we get there it is a easier transnsition.
 

Mark Meer

Trusted Information Resource
#17
We are trying to avoud the funnel of having a moderator and limiting edit permissions. Right now we need to get things recorded as it is all tribal. We need everyone to help with this and if we regulate it like you said, no one will be empowered to contribute because of the moderator controlling it all.
...
Now on the topic of "controlled documents" what is the ISO requirement? I've been researching but we are a long way off, but also want to make sure we are starting on the right path, so when we get there it is a easier transnsition.
If you are planning ISO certification, get a copy of the standard. This way you know exactly what the requirement wordings are.

That being said, there's the ISO requirement wording, and then there's the principle behind it. Scrupulous auditors will ask questions to try to assess if the system adheres to the principles.

In this case it is document & change control. If I were auditing the system you describe I'd ask questions like:
  • How do you ensure that edits to documents are properly reviewed and approved prior to use?
  • What is your process for approving changes, and how do you tie this to GDocs system of recording every edit (even minor ones)?
  • When a document is open to editing, can it still be used? If so, it is not controlled.

Just a few things to consider, that relate to the principles of controlling documents and changes...
 

Pancho

wikineer
Super Moderator
#18
If you are planning ISO certification, get a copy of the standard.
Couldn't agree more.


  • How do you ensure that edits to documents are properly reviewed and approved prior to use?
  • What is your process for approving changes, and how do you tie this to GDocs system of recording every edit (even minor ones)?
Mark, the company gets to define what is proper as far as review and approval, so long as it produces quality.

We have been successful without moderation and with almost no limit on editing permissions, just as Johann would like to do.

If you were auditing our organization, we'd explain that we allow the author of a change to self-approve, provided she judges herself competent to do so. Changes become live immediately. Further review is provided by the process owner, but it is done post-implementation. This turbo-charges small improvements, while larger changes are usually handled through CAPA simply because they require the contribution of several folks.

The detailed change log is very useful, for both small and large changes are documented.

This process constitutes proper review and approval prior to use, and has worked extremely well for us over nearly a decade. I'd definitely recommend it for most companies.

  • When a document is open to editing, can it still be used? If so, it is not controlled.
Where does the standard say this?
 

Mark Meer

Trusted Information Resource
#19
We have been successful without moderation and with almost no limit on editing permissions, just as Johann would like to do.

If you were auditing our organization, we'd explain that we allow the author of a change to self-approve, provided she judges herself competent to do so. Changes become live immediately. Further review is provided by the process owner, but it is done post-implementation.
Where does the standard say this?
I have a feeling that context is probably important here. I'm speaking in general principles of documentation control (not precise wording of standard), and I'd readily acknowledge that in certain cases a less controlled system could work just fine.

But judging from your description, I'd presume that you are talking about a very specific context: likely a relatively small organization, or documents used by a small group of people who all have the same authorities. In other contexts, however, such a setup would be highly problematic.

Consider an assembly procedure used by an entire shop floor on a continual basis. You can see how allowing anyone to edit the procedure, self-approve the changes, and have the changes take effect immediately might warrant some preventive action, no?
 

Pancho

wikineer
Super Moderator
#20
I have a feeling that context is probably important here. I'm speaking in general principles of documentation control (not precise wording of standard), and I'd readily acknowledge that in certain cases a less controlled system could work just fine.

But judging from your description, I'd presume that you are talking about a very specific context: likely a relatively small organization, or documents used by a small group of people who all have the same authorities. In other contexts, however, such a setup would be highly problematic.
Even if it only applied to "small" organizations, those are the majority of businesses. But I think the contexts where what I said would work extend much beyond that.


Consider an assembly procedure used by an entire shop floor on a continual basis. You can see how allowing anyone to edit the procedure, self-approve the changes, and have the changes take effect immediately might warrant some preventive action, no?
Most folks are professionals who want to do good. Let them! If you provide a system that empowers them and provides unobtrusive accountability, they will own it. A wiki provides such accountability by recording and publishing who changes what when.

That is enough to reduce the risk and consequences of malicious or incompetent changes to near zero, while improvement ignites.

Conversely, an obtrusive system discourages contributions and improvement.
 
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