Google Apps vs. Wiki for ISO 9001 documentation

Mark Meer

Trusted Information Resource
#21
Most folks are professionals who want to do good. Let them! If you provide a system that empowers them and provides unobtrusive accountability, they will own it. A wiki provides such accountability by recording and publishing who changes what when.

That is enough to reduce the risk and consequences of malicious or incompetent changes to near zero, while improvement ignites.

Conversely, an obtrusive system discourages contributions and improvement.
We are in total agreement. :agree:

Regrettably, I think it is my own experience with regulators and auditors, that have led me to act on many preventive actions.

Auditor: Who can make changes?
Organization: Anyone, anytime.

Auditor: Who is authorized to approve changes?
Organization: Any person making changes.

Organization: ...but there's a system of traceability, so it's ok.

The auditors I've dealt with, this would not fly...
:sarcasm: :rolleyes:
 
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Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#23
For standards beyond ISO 9001, I can see how regulators could deem such antics as sinful. :)
Yes, absolutely! I can only speak for automotive supplier industry requirements for changes. Changes in general (including document changes) are considered high-risk events and must be tightly controlled. From my experience as an auditor (internal/external), changes are not always effectively controlled (review and implementation) and as a result have led to serious nonconformities. Discipline is the key, and obviously you and your Staff have been able to demonstrate to the CB auditor that this is not a concern at your organization.
 

Mark Meer

Trusted Information Resource
#24
For standards beyond ISO 9001, I can see how regulators could deem such antics as sinful. :)
Ah, this explains a lot...my point of reference is the medical device industry - hence my overly conservative approach.

I'd presumed that the ISO 9001 expectations would be similar to ISO 13485 (at least insofar as the requirements align). But now, I realize that my suggestions are probably unnecessarily burdensome to those seeking ISO 9001.

It's nice to know that there are still wide open systems that depend on trust and professionalism, and can still be certified. Thanks for pointing that out!

Cheers!
MM.
 
K

kdjohannes

#25
This is all really great stuff guys. Thanks for the replies and discussion. I'll work on getting a copy of the standard so we can better prep ourselves.

Pancho, I really like your enthusiasm of empowering people and inviting them to make changes, whether an exec. or associate or a plant machine operator. That's the route myself and a few others want to go.

Does anyone know if you can set up notifications of changes to "owners" or a specific set of people within G Suite / G Docs? It seems Confluence allows this but I'd like to make sure changes would at least be gone over even after they are published (for things like grammar and consistent formatting, etc.).
 
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Pancho

wikineer
Super Moderator
#26
I may have asked this on another thread...but in terms of tracking changes, in G Suite you obviously have usernames/accounts. Is that how any of you have set up your wikis? Forcing people to log in, to either see content or make an edit?
Yes. Most wikis set up a cookie for auto log in from the same computer, so there is hardly any friction in doing so.


Pancho, I really like your enthusiasm of empowering people and inviting them to make changes, whether an exec. or associate or a plant machine operator. That's the route myself and a few others want to go.
We've found it very rewarding. You know how they say we only use 10% of our brains? That may be false for individuals, but it certainly isn't for organizations. Most companies only allow a very small clique to think and solve problems. This is such an incredible waste of brain power!

A wiki encourages your whole team to contribute. It harvests everyone's knowledge and capabilities. And since there is hardly a more rewarding experience than seeing your work make a difference, folks love it. And the company benefits tremendously.
 
K

kdjohannes

#27
Yes. Most wikis set up a cookie for auto log in from the same computer, so there is hardly any friction in doing so.
I know you just answered this on the other thread I'm posting in (why I deleted my original question here). We have plant computers that operators share...I could make sure that the browser saves log in info, but people may be worried that someone will log in under their name.

We've found it very rewarding. You know how they say we only use 10% of our brains? That may be false for individuals, but it certainly isn't for organizations. Most companies only allow a very small clique to think and solve problems. This is such an incredible waste of brain power!

A wiki encourages your whole team to contribute. It harvests everyone's knowledge and capabilities. And since there is hardly a more rewarding experience than seeing your work make a difference, folks love it. And the company benefits tremendously.
Such a great word Pancho! I would love to see our org there someday...but sometimes it seems impossible to get there...
 
K

kdjohannes

#28
So I know people have talked about getting notification of changes when using a wiki and have some people that are part of the quality committee checking those changes (but not moderating). Does anyone know of a way to enable notifications within Google Drive/Google Docs for when a change is made? I know this is possible on Google Sheets, but my searches come up empty for Docs. Thought I'd reach out here! Thanks in advance - this forum has really helped and encouraged me for the short time I've been a member!
 
#29
This is a great thread and we are in the process of implementing a QMS on an internal DokuWiki. I like Pancho am of the mindset that everyone should be able to contribute. To satisfy the CB's we have added a plugin called "Publish" which will put the Wiki page into a draft state anytime a change is made. You can then assign a reviewer/approver to change the state back to Approved. This allows anyone in the company to make edits, but still provides the review/approve work flow. Additionally, the plugin adds a title box at the top of the wiki page showing the state of the page as either Draft or Approved. If it is in draft there is a quicklink to the last approved revision.
 

Ronen E

Problem Solver
Staff member
Moderator
#30
Most folks are professionals who want to do good. Let them! If you provide a system that empowers them and provides unobtrusive accountability, they will own it. A wiki provides such accountability by recording and publishing who changes what when.

That is enough to reduce the risk and consequences of malicious or incompetent changes to near zero, while improvement ignites.

Conversely, an obtrusive system discourages contributions and improvement.
This is nothing short of INSPIRING. :applause:

In risk management terms: Instead of thinking of reducing risk AFAP (as far as possible), think in terms of overall benefit/risk assessment.
 
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