GR&R Destructive Data Analysis

brauenbuehler

Starting to get Involved
#1
Hi Again Everyone,

Another GRR question. I am writing a protocol for a GRR that requires the analysis of destructive data.

I currently have justified using 90 total parts divided equally among 3 operators to match our justification of 10 parts x 3 operators x 3 repetitions for non-destructive variable data. First off, is this justification robust?

Second, when it comes to data analysis, I've proposed the following: 1624046332710.png

Does this analysis strategy hold any ground? What would you all recommend?

Thanks for the advice,
Ben
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

optomist1

A Sea of Statistics
Super Moderator
#3
always helps to know the parts, device etc...pls share info, as well as industry if you can...

Cheers Optomist1
 

rmyjq

Starting to get Involved
#4
It is good, can refer, Measurement System Analysis (MSA), Fourth Edition, Chapter IV - Section A --- Practices for Complex or Non-Replicable Measurement Systems, Section C Variability Studies, V4: Split Specimens (General).
Then using the ANOVA method or Standard GRR techniques to do data analysis.
 

Miner

Forum Moderator
Staff member
Admin
#5
Hi Again Everyone,

Another GRR question. I am writing a protocol for a GRR that requires the analysis of destructive data.

I currently have justified using 90 total parts divided equally among 3 operators to match our justification of 10 parts x 3 operators x 3 repetitions for non-destructive variable data. First off, is this justification robust?

Second, when it comes to data analysis, I've proposed the following: View attachment 27950

Does this analysis strategy hold any ground? What would you all recommend?

Thanks for the advice,
Ben
I would need to know more about the process to determine whether parts may safely be assumed to be the same. Also, your wording could be interpreted to say that all 90 parts are identical, which would not be good. You want the parts within each set of 9 to be identical, but want differences between the sets of 9.

I should mention also that I am trying to run a crossed GRR analysis on Minitab
Use the nested GRR analysis for destructive tests.
 

brauenbuehler

Starting to get Involved
#6
always helps to know the parts, device etc...pls share info, as well as industry if you can...

Cheers Optomist1
I work in the Medical Device Industry. When I mentioned protocol, I should have included that it is a protocol template. We make a very wide variety of devices for small batch manufacturing. There isn't a specific device in mind but I'm working to generate sections of the document that can be removed if not applicable.


I would need to know more about the process to determine whether parts may safely be assumed to be the same. Also, your wording could be interpreted to say that all 90 parts are identical, which would not be good. You want the parts within each set of 9 to be identical, but want differences between the sets of 9.



Use the nested GRR analysis for destructive tests.

After reading what Miner said, I'm not sure of anything that this would truly apply to within what we do, however it's good to build in the option.

Would we still use a nested study if we make the assumption that the parts are identical or is the nested study what we use if we CANNOT assume they are identical?
 

brauenbuehler

Starting to get Involved
#7
It is good, can refer, Measurement System Analysis (MSA), Fourth Edition, Chapter IV - Section A --- Practices for Complex or Non-Replicable Measurement Systems, Section C Variability Studies, V4: Split Specimens (General).
Then using the ANOVA method or Standard GRR techniques to do data analysis.
This is where I was also pulling my information. I wanted to double check that my understanding was sound.
 

Miner

Forum Moderator
Staff member
Admin
#8
Would we still use a nested study if we make the assumption that the parts are identical or is the nested study what we use if we CANNOT assume they are identical?
If you can measure the same parts multiple times, use a crossed study. If you cannot measure a part more than one time, use a nested study.
 

Miner

Forum Moderator
Staff member
Admin
#9
This is where I was also pulling my information. I wanted to double check that my understanding was sound.
Section A (p. 154) lists two methods that may be used for destructive R&R studies (i.e., V3 or V4). Both methods use one of two approaches:
  • Split specimens - The product is subdivided into multiple specimens, each of which are tested (e.g., cutting a continuous extrusion into small lengths; die cutting tensile specimens from a sheet of material; sampling 5cc samples from a 100L batch of chemical, etc.).
  • Consecutive parts - When the process is very homogeneous, consecutive parts may be used instead (e.g., precision machining, stamping, etc.).
Both of the above methods are used to provide the multiple measurements required for an "individual' part. The samples for the next "individual" part should be taken from a different "batch" of material or after an extended length of time between..
 

brauenbuehler

Starting to get Involved
#10
Section A (p. 154) lists two methods that may be used for destructive R&R studies (i.e., V3 or V4). Both methods use one of two approaches:
  • Split specimens - The product is subdivided into multiple specimens, each of which are tested (e.g., cutting a continuous extrusion into small lengths; die cutting tensile specimens from a sheet of material; sampling 5cc samples from a 100L batch of chemical, etc.).
  • Consecutive parts - When the process is very homogeneous, consecutive parts may be used instead (e.g., precision machining, stamping, etc.).
Both of the above methods are used to provide the multiple measurements required for an "individual' part. The samples for the next "individual" part should be taken from a different "batch" of material or after an extended length of time between..

Okay then a follow up question would be: What if we can't assume our parts are identical? I'll use an example of a UV bond that we tensile test. If there is slight variation in the amount of adhesive used then the parts would not be identical. I would say that most of our testing would actually fall into this category. What would you recommend in the event that the identical part assumption can't be made?
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
M Comparing data from destructive testing Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 7
R MSA gage R&R (GR&R) for Destructive Test (Non-Replicable Data) Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 2
M Who are the go to companies for non-destructive hardness testing? General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 3
T Interlaboratory comparison or proficiency testing in destructive testing of welded joints ISO 17025 related Discussions 3
N Is capability applicable for a destructive test? Capability, Accuracy and Stability - Processes, Machines, etc. 9
M Identifying Technologies for Non Destructive Examination of steel brazed joints Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 1
D Do I need part variation while doing Destructive Variable Gage R&R MSA study Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 19
A Non-destructive testing methods are special processes? Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 18
S Script of R software to conduct Nested GRR for Destructive Testing Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 0
S About NDT (Non-Destructive Testing) and ISO 17020 Other ISO and International Standards and European Regulations 4
V Sampling Plan for Destructive Testing Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 2
S Magnetic Particle Inspection Non-Destructive Testing Procedure Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 9
C Sampling plan for destructive tests on small lots ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 20
S Destructive Gage RR - Using Crossed - want your thoughts Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 18
T Destructive Tensile Test Sampling Gage R&R Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 9
J Gauge R&R for Destructive Test Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 7
R Destructive Non Reproducibility MSA (Measurement System Analysis) Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 8
M Manufacturing Process Validation Destructive Testing Sampling Plan Advice Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 1
J Critical Defect Destructive Testing Sampling Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 1
K How to perform Verification for a Gage that is used in Destructive Testing Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 2
S Destructive Attribute MSA for Simple Water Leak Check in Trailers Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 5
A Destructive Testing Failure Mode Sampling Plan Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 5
S Samples for a Destructive Test included in a Lot Size? Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 5
E Destructive Pull Test Gage R&R advice needed Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 9
A Destructive Test Sample Size Reduction Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 10
A Destructive Attribute (Crossed) Gage R&R - Need Help! Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 3
O Destructive Attribute Gage R&R without LSL/USL Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 5
S Looking for A Non-Destructive Crimp Test method to replace Pull Test Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 2
M Destructive VTMV Subgroups - A Destructive Variable Test Method to Validate Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 11
E Sequence of Operations - Non-Destructive Testing vs. Trim & Drill Manufacturing and Related Processes 2
C Prices for NDT (Non-Destructive Testing) Inspection for a Boeing 737-400 Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 1
B GR&R (Gage R&R) for Destructive Test - Question on how to? Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 2
optomist1 MSA Gage R&R - Destructive Test with One Sided Specification and One Operator Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 4
C Gage R&R Destructive UTS Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 1
A Destructive Test Sample Size Determination Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 4
A Performance Qualification For Destructive Testing (Impact Testing) Qualification and Validation (including 21 CFR Part 11) 4
I Destructive Testing Measurement System Analysis (MSA) Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 12
C "Destructive" Linearity Study Methodology Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 6
M What Sample Size for Destructive Test and is 'T' Test applicable? Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 2
N Destructive/Non-Repeatable Measurement Gage R&R Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 5
C Batch Acceptance: Cpk requirements and Sample Size - Destructive Testing Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 2
P Nested vs. Crossed Gage R&R Models for Destructive Tests Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 4
D Part Variation, Unilateral Tolerance, Destructive Testing - Gage R&R Experts pls help Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 12
R Destructive Attribute MSA (Measurement System Analysis) Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 9
R Destructive Attribute Gage Studies - inserted/pressed in parts Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 6
T Gage R&R studies for Destructive Test Devices (pull and push tests) Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 5
hogheavenfarm Cyclic Destructive Testing - Continuous vs. Segments Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 14
D Project to Reduce Destructive Sampling in Crimping Process Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 3
Y Destructive Gage R&R Spreadsheet - Old MSA formula (5.15s) vs New formula (6s) Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 3
B MSA Study on Test Rig Constraints - Destructive, Long Duration Tests Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 4

Similar threads

Top Bottom