Handling External Audits with Internal Vacations

S

somerqc

#51
I guess it is good that we have our audits in February! :)

Around here the only people that will miss are the people that can head down south. In fact, our registration audit started late due to one of the worst snowstorms of the season on the 1st day! Both the lead auditor and myself were stuck behind a snowplow convoy (those of you in snowy areas are likely familar with those).

Looking back to my 1st ISO system registration, there were actually 2 dept managers that were not there (one quit 1 week before the audit, the other was a new father that morning - wife was 2 weeks early). We dealt and passed with flying colours. I just try to avoid those types of situations if at all possible.
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
#52
Based on responses I am seeing here, this would be considered draconian in many places. I consider it a perfectly reasonable request. To think, I am probably one of the younger ones here!
Draconian seems to be a very good word. I start with the belief that most people are like me and my "job" is about #5 on my priority list. It can be replaced, whereas Items 1-4 cannot. I also believe that quality audits, registrations, blah, blah, blah, are not all that special and certainly no more so than the kind of business we do every day (our utilization is never above 85% because we have so many experienced people with a lot of vacation and comp time). Excepting high-level strategic planning meetings that require only a very few people, there is very little that happens in most companies that cannot be addressed by backups, secondaries, whatever you want to call them. In fact, this is one of the things that should be addressed under contingency plans and it is why we encourage vacation planning so far in advance.

As Quality Manager and Management Rep., there is not a single element that I could not cover with an external auditor at a registration audit or any other QMS audit. It might not be pretty and I might step in a non-conformance that a more knowledgeable and adroit manager might avoid. However, my performance, or lack thereof, would not be the difference between registration or not, approval or not.

I've never had to restrict vacations or do anything other than planning and communicating external audits ~6 months in advance. So as to try not to sound egotistical, that's two ISO9001 registrations, two different companies, one with the added bonus of TS on top. More flies with honey than vinegar and all that. I am not the adversary and my QMS system and the resulting improvements show it. I've seen way too many ineffective, draconian systems and I doubt that I'd be very good at running one like that, anyway.
 
#53
Looking back to my 1st ISO system registration, there were actually 2 dept managers that were not there (one quit 1 week before the audit, the other was a new father that morning - wife was 2 weeks early). We dealt and passed with flying colours. I just try to avoid those types of situations if at all possible.
See, no big deal!
 
N

noboost4you

#55
By our time clock we have the 2007 Vacation Request schedule with the entire calendar on the page, etc. Dates labeled in red are prohibited vacation days. Needless to say, we just updated that list and that entire week is restricted do to the audit except for the one whom already requested.
 

ScottK

Not out of the crisis
Staff member
Super Moderator
#56
Draconian seems to be a very good word. I start with the belief that most people are like me and my "job" is about #5 on my priority list. It can be replaced, whereas Items 1-4 cannot. I also believe that quality audits, registrations, blah, blah, blah, are not all that special and certainly no more so than the kind of business we do every day (our utilization is never above 85% because we have so many experienced people with a lot of vacation and comp time). Excepting high-level strategic planning meetings that require only a very few people, there is very little that happens in most companies that cannot be addressed by backups, secondaries, whatever you want to call them. In fact, this is one of the things that should be addressed under contingency plans and it is why we encourage vacation planning so far in advance.

As Quality Manager and Management Rep., there is not a single element that I could not cover with an external auditor at a registration audit or any other QMS audit. It might not be pretty and I might step in a non-conformance that a more knowledgeable and adroit manager might avoid. However, my performance, or lack thereof, would not be the difference between registration or not, approval or not.

I've never had to restrict vacations or do anything other than planning and communicating external audits ~6 months in advance. So as to try not to sound egotistical, that's two ISO9001 registrations, two different companies, one with the added bonus of TS on top. More flies with honey than vinegar and all that. I am not the adversary and my QMS system and the resulting improvements show it. I've seen way too many ineffective, draconian systems and I doubt that I'd be very good at running one like that, anyway.

Asking a guy to reschedule his vacation isn't draconian.
Forcing a guy to reschedule his vacation is.
But I don't think any of us advocated that.

I put in my time and sweat and justified the $$ and time with the boss to give everyone the training and the tools to get this rolling, so I expect them to be here for the big show. Is that really too much to expect?

Of course, as part of the give and take of leading a team I am expected to give fair warning of events understand that some personal things are unavoidable.

So I see no harm in asking.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#57
This August is our external (registration) audit. During the week they'll be here, a couple department supervisors will be on vacation. Both supervisors are the only personnel in their department, such as our Engineering department.

At this point, only the Engineering manager knows where everything is electronically; we really don't keep many hardcopy Engineering files. How can we succeed with this audit without rescheduling and still allowing their vacations?

:thanx:
I'll be very honest and direct (as always) so please, please, please don't take what I say to be a personal attack. I'm not what you would call politically correct at times, but life and the truth are many times hard pills to swallow.

Looking at what you have said, and stating that I have not taken the time to read what everyone else has said, I'll tell you flat out that you have nothing but a big fat failure on your hands if you think you have some kind of effectively implemented and managed "system" in place.

A truly well implemented, maintained and effective management system would be able to be audited at any time by anybody and show itself to be doing what it is supposed to do. Being "un-prepared" or not having the "right people" available are such bogus excuses for a poor systems ability to pass an audit the best thing that could be done for everyone involved would be to pull the chain and flush it.

It should not matter if someone went on vacation, quit, got fired, or dropped dead from a heart attack, they're not the ones being audited, the system is!

The solution is not having people not go on vacation, the solution is to apply sound management principles, think of this as something that needs corrective action or one that needs preventive action, identify the "REAL CAUSE" (not some BS, whiney, snot slinging problem), develop a solution and FIX IT. Don't put a bandaid on the compound fracture, because having people not go on vacation is just that and nothing more...the fracture is still there and you'll just wind up creating a cripple.

Right now, based upon what you have said, you will not be successful. So you can either fix the damaged foundation, or just toss some plaster and paint on it.

Your choice and I truly wish you luck and hope for your success.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#58
By our time clock we have the 2007 Vacation Request schedule with the entire calendar on the page, etc. Dates labeled in red are prohibited vacation days. Needless to say, we just updated that list and that entire week is restricted do to the audit except for the one whom already requested.
That might solve the immediate concern, but it does not solve the system issue. The system should not be understood by one person only. It is a system for everyone, and each one needs to understand how to use and benefit from his portion.
 
N

noboost4you

#59
and each one needs to understand how to use and benefit from his portion.
Exactly. The system is for everyone, yet people in Customer Service don't want to know what takes place in Engineering and vice versa. If our Engineering manager knows his portion thats all well and good, but he won't be there for the audit. A Customer Service rep would not be able to stand in for Engineering during an audit, simply because they don't know their portion.

You can't expect everyone in the entire organization to know everyone's responsibilities and duties related to the QMS. Everyone should know the basics, but people on the production floor are not going to concern themselves with section 7.4 Purchasing.

Randy, read your response and gave it a little thought, however, I beg to differ. Last week our consultant came back in after 8 weeks since his first visit. What was supposed to be a 2-day "desktop" audit and wrapping up any help with documentation turned out to be a little more than a 1-day visit. He said we were the most prepared organization at this stage that he has ever seen. He said we made his job easy. He also went on to say we could have had the registration audit the following day and would have passed with flying colors. Again, your response is another premature "attack" not knowing all the information. We know our situation and where we stand, I just wanted to know if having the Engineering manager out on vacation and replacing him with a trainee of the Engineering department would suffice. And after all this discussion, we know we'll be just fine with him out for the week.
 
H

HSSE Auditor

#60
Randy, read your response and gave it a little thought, however, I beg to differ. Last week our consultant came back in after 8 weeks since his first visit. What was supposed to be a 2-day "desktop" audit and wrapping up any help with documentation turned out to be a little more than a 1-day visit. He said we were the most prepared organization at this stage that he has ever seen. He said we made his job easy. He also went on to say we could have had the registration audit the following day and would have passed with flying colors. Again, your response is another premature "attack" not knowing all the information. We know our situation and where we stand, I just wanted to know if having the Engineering manager out on vacation and replacing him with a trainee of the Engineering department would suffice. And after all this discussion, we know we'll be just fine with him out for the week.
It would appear to me that you have been playing games by withholding the above information, or maybe this is "another premature "attack" not knowing all the information".:frust:
 
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