Hard cut off date for certificates to be issued against ISO 9001:2008?

[DWilliamA]

I facilitated a registration in house some years back - ISO 1987 with a heavy dose of Malcolm Baldrige. I basically took an ISO void of everything it stands for today and turned it into everything it stands for today, and did so through a team effort. Right now the company is very na?ve. 50% of the time when we have 'quality' meetings scheduled they get cancelled because someone can't (read won't) make it. Recently replaced a CEO that asserted that corrective actions are only for RMA and preventive actions are only for in-process related activities, black and white. The mindset still centers on QA inspector centric processes, the opposite of Demings 3rd of 14 points, ceasing the dependence on inspection based systems. My initial attempts to train ended up going to the ... just throw it together and make it happen. The last meeting we discussed "objective evidence" and the push back was 'been doing this for 27 years, that should be good enough' .... so there are some up hill battles here, we are truly working on (in need of) revamping the culture of the company from the top down.

I agree, the core work should take about 6 months... It might appear that this company is not ready for this... it thinks it is, but there is some serious support and buy in issues, its just getting off to a rocky start and my plan allows for an appropriate amount of time to get through this stage.

 

[Reg Morrison]

Re: hard cut off date for 2008?

so my questions morphs into - what concerns might an early adopter have creating a fresh QMS?

One of the concerns for the early registrants is the fact that the 2015 Edition of ISO 9001 has a significant amount of requirements that are non-traditional. Things like defining the context of the organization, risk based thinking, mandatory process approach, latitude on documentation development, etc...

Many external auditors will struggle on how to audit systems against the new set of requirements, despite whatever classroom training their employers mandate. So, for many of the early registrants, they will be like guinea pigs validating if the auditors can adequately assess systems against a radically different set of requirements.

In my opinion, the certified organizations will behave exactly like the last time we had a significant change in the standard (year 2000) and delay the transition as much as possible to learn from the lessons of the early adopters.

 

[DWilliamA]

I considered the 'delay' game, or hassles associated with everything being new. I am hoping we do it right and are worthy of certification, and can find a registrar that will play - and maybe we have a slightly easier time of it being an early adopter. Or it turns into sour grapes and we would have been better off with 2008 ???

Probably need to start investigating where the registrars are likely to land on this topic.

 

[AndyN]

I considered the 'delay' game, or hassles associated with everything being new. I am hoping we do it right and are worthy of certification, and can find a registrar that will play - and maybe we have a slightly easier time of it being an early adopter. Or it turns into sour grapes and we would have been better off with 2008 ???

Probably need to start investigating where the registrars are likely to land on this topic.

Compared to the 1994/2000 transition, CBs are now required to have a plan on how to address the differences, auditor training etc. It would be worthwhile considering how a prospective CB would handle that. I've already heard that some auditors have dismissed the changes as minimal, so their CB clearly hasn't effectively communicated a position to their staff...

 

[Helmut Jilling]

Re: hard cut off date for 2008?

So we have some time to work with 2008 if we wanted, conventional wisdom seems to indicate that if we are going to build a fresh QMS might as well jump straight to 2015.... besides, it would annoy me personally to have to craft something and turn right around revamp it.

so my questions morphs into - what concerns might an early adopter have creating a fresh QMS? Doesn't seem all that complicated to start now with DIS with a reasonable expectation that the FDIS and final release will fall in line without too much hassle.

You ask a very valid question. I would suggest that if your management team personnel has some degree of familiarity of ISO 9001:2008 from past experience, past companies...then it may be an easier implementation to go with the familiar first, and gradually build in the new.


However, if there is no past familiarity, then I would go with the new. I will agree that I would take a full year to build it into the company, do it in stages, modules, and roll it out slowly and smoothly with planning, training, implementing and checking each phase as you go.


I agree with my friend AndyN that it CAN be done more quickly, but I disagree that quicker is better. In. Small company, it is frequently disruptive and incomplete if you rush it faster. That is why I favor the modular approach I discussed. Less disruptive...easier to get the buy in.


The use of a good consultant to start the process and help define the modules and path for your company might be a good initial investment. They can also provide some much needed training.


I would not be concerned about the registrars. Pick a good one, make sure they don't assign a new rookie auditor, and you should be good to go. AndyN, Sidney Vianna and I all represent good registrars, and that gives you 3 good ones to interview....

 

[DWilliamA]

Re: hard cut off date for 2008?

Just talked with TUV (they called me because I visited their web risk webinar thing) and they confirmed that they would be ready to go with auditing to 2015 shortly after release, and probably be able to offer on-site audit activities in advance of the release as well. didn't seem too concerned with transition, being that they have to have a transition plan in place too, in advance of offering transition services - little convoluted, all good.

After reading through the DIS, I can see how it shouldn't be too difficult to audit. Fact is, I am completely excited with the way the structure is modeled after PDAC with Risk Management up front and integrated throughout.... it makes it so much easier to visualize the process approach with integrated risk management, as one big preventive action process, which helps with training.... Frankly, I was is pain trying to bring sense to the 2008 model with the provisions and the realizations, and no formal configuration management (like AS9100) etc. and no clear concept on how to connect quality policies and objectives to make it all go.....

I really like 2015 so far.

 

[AndyN]

I can confirm NQA, USA will be in the same position. In fact, as part of the development team, I'm currently involved in the internal training for our people...

 

[Michael Drechsel]

Just for information: IAF published its Transition Planning Guidance on January 12 as an official document. IAF ID 9:2015. The 18 months period become not Part of the document. In theory it Would br possible to use the old Standard and to get a certificate (of course wit a erstritten validity period)) During the whole 3 years Transition period.