Has an Implementation by a Consultant EVER Failed?

We used (or I am) a consultant and at the registration audit:

  • Company - Passed 1st time - Registrar was our choice.

    Votes: 6 20.0%
  • Company - Passed 1st time - Registrar was chosen by our consultant.

    Votes: 1 3.3%
  • Company - Passed 1st time - Did not use a consultant.

    Votes: 10 33.3%
  • Company - Failed 1st time - Registrar was our choice.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Company - Failed 1st time - Registrar was chosen by our consultant.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Company - Failed 1st time - Did not use a consultant.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Consultant - Have never had a client fail - I choose registrar.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Consultant - Have never had a client fail - I do NOT choose registrar.

    Votes: 5 16.7%
  • Consultant - Have had a client fail - I choose registrar.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Consultant - Have had a client fail - I do NOT choose registrar.

    Votes: 1 3.3%
  • Doesn't apply to me.

    Votes: 7 23.3%

  • Total voters
    30
R

Rob Nix

#31
cochranemurray said:
...the word "fail" is frowned upon. The politically correct prefer "deferred success"
:lol: That is just great!

I think the poll results are interesting so far. From a "company's" view, 25 passed the first time using no consultant, whereas 0 failed the first time using no consultant (100% pass w/no consultant), and two had "success deferred" using a consultant. From the view of consultants, clients pass 100%. Not a scientifically precise survey, but interesting nonetheless.
 
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J

jcbodie

#32
Matt_M said:
Here is my issue/observation; most consultants for ISO, CMM, CMMI, etc. tend to drive the documentation / process to be easy for the auditor/appraiser – not for the user. A consistent battle in my organization is to make sure were are developing and documenting processes to make them easier for the user community, not auditors, assessors, etc.
From the 3rd Party Registrar Auditor side, when the consultant has been present during my audits, it is clear they have written most of the documentation (I know this because I make sure to "test" folks on how to use what is suppose to be "their" QMS, and many require coaching from the consultant). I have found, in these cases, the consultant seems to use a formulaic approach to the documentation, and I've not felt it was necessarily serving either the customer or the 3rd Party Auditor. Rather, I think its' what that consultant was comfortable developing and using with many clients. One of many reasons, I think its' very important (as you have indicated) that the end user develops their own documentation :agree1: . It's not that hard and is a real eye-opener for some folks, when they discover people within the same dept are doing things differently. It's also a good way to build consensus and ownership of the QMS, as well as, develop "best practices".
 
W

wsand

#33
With a degree in Business Administration and no real knowledge of ISO, I was hired to assist our company with streamlining operations and to develop an ISO 9000 certified QMS. Streamlining was a peice of cake - the QMS has been another story. No matter how much I learned and tried to share with management about what we needed to do to be compliant to the standard, I simply couldn't get any significant cooperation from the company's owner and CEO. ( :bonk: We want that ISO banner - but we really don't want to have to do the work - nothing new here.)

Donning my blinders and pushing on, I secured some grant money from our state's workforce development board and hired a "facilitator" from NC State College's Industrial Extension Service. He comes in every few weeks, reviews the work I've done, assists with the gray areas of the standard and - most importantly - acts as the outside authority on ISO. This has been instrumental in getting managment's attention. While he has plenty of written documents and procedures we can use as examples, I have written everything to be as specific to our company as possible. In fact, I have stressed from the very beginning that the only way we can do this successfully is to ensure that we put systems into place that will enhance and benefit our processes - not bog them down.

There is a flat fee to go through the program in which you are guided in the development and implementation of your QMS over a 12 month period. You choose your own registrar and they guarantee to stick with you until you get certified - no additional fees apply. It's a great program - but it's only as good as the people working with it. Our facilitator has done a terrific job guiding me through the process. Sadly, my company's owner has the attitude that I'll get it all written up, we'll get certified, then we'll be all done and he can keep doing things his own way. Grrr...yes, I'm getting a great education on the job - but, there's still no real support from the guy at the top and I have wonder if I'm wasting his money.

Are we writing our own documents and developing our own system that complies with the standard? :agree1: Yes. Has our "consultant" done a good job? :applause: Absolutely! Will we get certified? :confused: Probably. Will the system be in place a year later if I leave this company? :nope: I seriously doubt it. My point is that (and this is my humble, limited experience opinion) no matter how good or bad your consultant is, whatever you pay for is useless if your looking for a piece of paper to hang on the wall and not willing to commit to the QMS you develop (or buy).
 
J

jcbodie

#34
wsand said:
No matter how much I learned and tried to share with management about what we needed to do to be compliant to the standard, I simply couldn't get any significant cooperation from the company's owner and CEO. Has our "consultant" done a good job? yes

This isn't unusual. I find that many times it isn't that the "consultant" isn't particularly more knowledgeble or adept at establishing the QMS, but rather the so called "expert" syndrome, i.e. if someone in your own company tells you it's broke ( and how to fix it), the management disregards it; if a 3rd party comes in, and says the same thing, it's a revelation!. :rolleyes:
 
C

Craig H.

#35
wsand said:
My point is that (and this is my humble, limited experience opinion) no matter how good or bad your consultant is, whatever you pay for is useless if your looking for a piece of paper to hang on the wall and not willing to commit to the QMS you develop (or buy).
This may be humble, and from one with limited experience, but it is right on the money. It is that simple and that complex.
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#36
Somewhat off topic: :topic:

This morning I was supposed to go to an interview for a consultant position at George S. May International. Before leaving, I did the obligatory web search and found a number of very harsh comments about this group, both from clients and the consultants (ex-consultants when the comments were written).

I called and cancelled my appointment. The last thing I need is to quit my job, such as it is, and tarry after this questionable venture. :nope:

So, back to the tried and hopefully true job search.
 
B

betterlife

#37
cochranemurray said:
Perhaps we need another poll......did you fail the next surveillance audit once the consultant had gone ? Incidentally, in Great Britain the word "fail" is frowned upon. The politically correct prefer "deferred success"
There are few cases when company after certificaion lost connection with the consultant and got major NC in the next surveillance audit. Company again hired same or other consulant and could successfully close the NC and was cleared in follow-up audit.

'
 
S

solutions

#38
My point of view

I have to reply to all the posts about using consultants to achieve ISO certification. I do take some offense at many of the suppositions that have been argued. This is because:
1) I am a consultant and I love my job. I truly enjoy helping a company succeed, not with just certification, but with overall improvement. For me it' snot just about the money.
2) I was an RAB/IRCA certified ISO/QS/AS9000 assessor for over 7 years. I know how other consultants can operate and I too have tested the system to see if it really belongs to the organization. I am very aware of the shortcuts as well as the over-describing of activities.
3) I have direct experience developing QMS in companies for whom I was a direct employee, including aerospaceand medical devices so I know how to establish a system that not only complies but that works.
4) I do not have a direct affiliation with any registrar - we select the best one with the client based on their specific accreditation needs, cost constraints, industry, location, general preferences.
5) I do not use canned procedures - for each client we develop a process overview and map all the major processes in the organization. Using this as a guideline, we develop the necessary procedures and work instructions to reflect the company's culture and industry-speak.
6) We charge a fixed price for all the activities in the implementation process including training and documentation preparation. We provide more on-site time than most consultants in our area to work closely with the clients and give them support.
7) My experience in industry spans over 20 years and I know a lot about a lot. I have worked with or in industries with over 40 SIC codes. My contribution to a company exceeds writing a procedure, sometimes I am reviewing the GD&T on drawings or assisting with an FMEA or developing a calibration system from scratch.

You know, cynicism may often be justified, but not always. There are those of us in the world that do what we do to make it a better place.

Peace out.
 
M

MikeL

#39
Ongoing support

betterlife said:
There are few cases when company after certificaion lost connection with the consultant and got major NC in the next surveillance audit. Company again hired same or other consulant and could successfully close the NC and was cleared in follow-up audit.

'
I always contact my clients approaching their first surveillance audit to see how they are travelling.

I offer to assist with their first "on their own" Internal Audit or help fix up any nc's from the external audit, whatever they would like me to do that is reasonable.

I don't charge for this, I call it the warranty period on our product (consultancy).

(Most of my work comes from further ongoing support by the way).
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#40
solutions said:
I have to reply to all the posts about using consultants to achieve ISO certification. I do take some offense at many of the suppositions that have been argued. This is because:...You know, cynicism may often be justified, but not always. There are those of us in the world that do what we do to make it a better place.

Peace out.
With many good points you remind us, as do others, that there are indeed many good consultants out there.

I have also noted some caginess among potential clients and derision among this esteemed body of professionals, and I can surmise that there are lots of opportunties for what could have been a good experience to fail. I have wished for better consistency and brand recognition for quality, and less required effort for each private consultant to create him/herself like it was being done for the first time. Some arguably should not be running their own businesses, being everyone for everybody.

Lots of consulting and misuse (such as in client's business leaderships not able to transform patriarchal philosophies) mistakes were made with TQM, and the system as a whole is trying to do better with 6S's more structured approach. Again, this doesn't always work and when it doesn't, I imagine the consultant gets the blame--deserved or not. Mention TQM and don't the collective eyes roll?

So it seems to me there are a zillion facets involved with this whole thing and the sad result is that consulting is suffering from the difficulty in branding as a solidly value-added model.
 
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