Has anyone considered what logic is?

TPMB4

Quite Involved in Discussions
#1
Phrases such as "logical response" and "logic follows that..." are the sort of things I have read on here. I was wondering if anyone using such phrases has actually looked into what logic is? A simple or in depth look?

I am only asking because I have been flicking in and out of a programme on TV called the "Joy of Logic". It was interesting I thought and got me thinking I take logic for granted and don't really know enough about it. Syllogisms and other types of logic.

There is a nerdy logic joke I heard that I didn't even catch first time around. It goes something like this. 3 logicians walk into a pub and the landlord asks them "would you all like a beer?". The first logician says "I don't know". The second says "I don't know". Then the third thinks for as moment and says "Yes! We would like a beer."

Did you get it??

The key is the word "all" in the question. The first wanted a beer but had no idea if the others did so had to answer truthfully that he didn't know. Same with the second, but the third had heard the others say they didn't know so knew that they really wanted a beer. If any of the others didn't want a beer they could say honestly "no!" Since they didn't say that then the third knew they wanted the beer and since he wanted one he could answer yes!!

That is a simple example of a type of logic.

Anyone else actually think about logic and what it is? Reckon I'd like to know more. Afterall mathematics needed some of the best logical thinkers to put it on solid ground. It is the base of a lot of science too. You either have the science you prove through experimentation or that you prove through logic.
 
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Mikishots

Trusted Information Resource
#2
Phrases such as "logical response" and "logic follows that..." are the sort of things I have read on here. I was wondering if anyone using such phrases has actually looked into what logic is? A simple or in depth look?

I am only asking because I have been flicking in and out of a programme on TV called the "Joy of Logic". It was interesting I thought and got me thinking I take logic for granted and don't really know enough about it. Syllogisms and other types of logic.

There is a nerdy logic joke I heard that I didn't even catch first time around. It goes something like this. 3 logicians walk into a pub and the landlord asks them "would you all like a beer?". The first logician says "I don't know". The second says "I don't know". Then the third thinks for as moment and says "Yes! We would like a beer."

Did you get it??

The key is the word "all" in the question. The first wanted a beer but had no idea if the others did so had to answer truthfully that he didn't know. Same with the second, but the third had heard the others say they didn't know so knew that they really wanted a beer. If any of the others didn't want a beer they could say honestly "no!" Since they didn't say that then the third knew they wanted the beer and since he wanted one he could answer yes!!

That is a simple example of a type of logic.

Anyone else actually think about logic and what it is? Reckon I'd like to know more. Afterall mathematics needed some of the best logical thinkers to put it on solid ground. It is the base of a lot of science too. You either have the science you prove through experimentation or that you prove through logic.
I like the joke, very clever.

My own take: When people use the term "logical response" and "logic follows that...", they are really saying "if you don't want to be seen as illogical, you will need to agree with what I am saying".

It's a bit of a condescending manner of speech.
 

somashekar

Staff member
Super Moderator
#3
Ask a quick question to someone casually... why do you do what you do, and the quick answer is my boss wants it done., and here goes the logic into wilderness.
This is the very reason why the process interaction is so much a misunderstood concept.
This is the very reason why a steel rule is calibrated
This is the reason why works are duplicated
This is the reason why data is piled over data but analysis seldom is meaningful
This is the reason why CA are not effective
This is the reason why process validation is a mystery.....
The logic is belief system for some, and for some others it is not their job.
Life and work was supposed to be simple, however it has become the stress and strain when understanding was left aside.
 
C

Curtis317

#4
Another use of logic. Global Warming is not true. Why? Because if it were true then all the people that are harping about it would not fly personal jets to far out islands to talk about it. They would conduct the meetings in a big place where commercial jets fly and reduce carbon emissions. Or do a web meeting.:lmao:
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#5
The Chicago School of Economics is ultimately based on the logic of the "group mind," which posits that individuals may base their decisions on illogical beliefs, but that if the universe [market] of individuals is large enough, the various beliefs cancel each other out and result in a "logical" market. The logical market may not seem orderly or logical to the individual, but on a macro scale it is both logical and orderly.

:topic:
I got the point of the logic anecdote right away, but it was essentially a "cheat" since I presented puzzles like that frequently to my kids as they were going through school to help them learn to be more observant and discriminating when listening to teachers and reading texts.
 

TPMB4

Quite Involved in Discussions
#6
Yes Wes, a nice cheat that if you are not of the observant mindset you need a double-take. I for one did not get it, make no bones about that. I consider myself logical which is why I brought this up. People, myself included, do not know logic. They use logic when they can and probably haven't even thought what made that logical.

I found it interesting how there are types of logic and how the likes of the Vienna set used logic to provide a foundation for mathematics. The idea that mathematics does not have it's own foundations solid and true interested me. I always viewed mathematics as the foundation of science, rightly or wrongly. It seems you can probably follow mathematics back through logic to philosophy. We might have been using logic for millennia (intelligent ape afterall) but have we understood it? How many would get that little joke?
 

Michael_M

Trusted Information Resource
#7
The problem with logic (at it's core) is humans are not logical. While we may use logic on occasion, perception has a higher influence than logic does. Our perception of reality changes and influences us more than logic does.

For example in the joke:

3 logicians walk into a pub and the landlord asks them "would you all like a beer?". The first logician says "I don't know". The second says "I don't know". Then the third thinks for as moment and says "Yes! We would like a beer."
Going back and re-reading it knowing the answer (which I did not get the first time), the third one still does not know if "would you all like a beer?" The only thing the third one knows is the first two don't know. The answer of "I don't know" does not tell the third one if the first two want a beer. All it tells him is they don't know. The better answer for the first two would be something like "I do, I don't know about the other two/one"
 

TPMB4

Quite Involved in Discussions
#8
The question is would all of you want a drink? Perhaps I typed it slightly wrong. The strict interpretation is with emphasis on the ALL. If the first one did not want the pint of beer then he could quite rightly say "No!" So the logician in that makes the logical interpretation that he does want a beer because he could not answer. If he could then the only 100% true answer is no and only if he did not want a beer.

The second makes this assumption but not knowing the other one wants a beer or not still can't answer unless he didn't want a beer. Each time I stated that each logician did want a beer but could only interpret the earlier one's answer because he did not say no.

Do you see how the inability to give an answer but having to say "don't know!" meant the wanted a beer. The last one could make the logical interpretation they both wanted a beer so could answer for himself and the other two.

Basically it is possible for the last one to give the right answer in this case. I only got it when he went through it again. I got it just before he gave the game away, much better than me I will admit. I'm not a natural story or joke teller. I can ruin them at 100 paces!!
 

Michael_M

Trusted Information Resource
#9
If the first one does not want a beer and answers "no", since the word 'All' was used, he is then saying we 'all do not want a beer'. This is why I was saying perception. I am perceiving that "do you all want a beer" is yes or no to all. I can see it both ways.

In a written form, with the proper use of punctuation, your answer would be more correct than mine. However in the spoken form, without proper inflections, pauses, and perfect grammar either can be interrupted.
 
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