Have you ever felt ripped off by an auditors performance?

[RCW]

This is more of a vent than a question but hey, that's part of what this forum is for anyway isn't it? (whoops, that's a question)

I just recently went through an ISO9000:2000 surveillance audit two days before Christmas (HO HO HO!). Within an hour from the start of the audit I could tell the auditor was already thinking about his Christmas travel plans and not the audit he was to perform. We did get 2 NCs but they were such minor piddly things it was a joke.

Of course management is happier than a clam that the company "passed the test" and gets to keep its certificate. After the auditor had left, one of the upper management hot shots was bragging that he knew it was going to be easy and there was no way the company would fail (such business foresight!). In my opinion, my company got ripped off by just receiving a "buff and a shine".

Has anybody else felt their auditor was too soft on them? Did you do anything about it? (I said I wasn't going to ask questions but I just can't resist.)

 

[cncmarine]

What was the auditor "soft" on ? I don't know what you wanted...a major?

 

[Kevin H]

Hi RCW, I'll see your 2 days & raise you by 1, except our surveillance was for ISO/TS 16949 the 3 days just ahead of the holiday. Our auditor too was distracted by travel, but not as much as yours. He raised 1 NC, and 2 OFI's. The NC was with a department whose attention we've been trying to get, so it should help the system overall. Management is happy we passed the surveillance, and is wondering why we (QA) scheduled it for that week. We'd (QA) objected to the time when it was scheduled, but senior management all said it would be no problem and we should schedule the surveillance for the week before Christmas.

I'm only the engineer, not the manager, so I can't go to the registrar and indicate that I felt the auditor was too soft on us, but I've felt that this one is at times a little soft. At my previous employer, I felt that the auditor we had for surveillance audits was definitely soft on the company. Funny, it so happens that while the auditor was not the same the registrar was. Of the 2 QMS systems, I feel my prior employers was much better developed and more robust. One of the differences between the 2 employers is that this is a startup of 4 years, while the other company's plant had been operating for about 100 years.

So no, I've never done anything about auditors being soft on us as in neither situation would it have been politically correct/safe to do so.

 

[RCW]

my reply

What was the auditor "soft" on ? I don't know what you wanted...a major?

1. A "soft" example was that he was scheduled to audit our engineering department for design. He asked one of the engineers if there was any new designs going on. The engineer answered no, but he just finished a design. If I'm the auditor my next progression would be, okay, let's look at the output file for that job and see what you did. The ISO auditors next move? Oh, okay, no new designs, onto the next clause.

2. Another example: I am told annually that there are 3 major areas that will be examined at every audit, management review, internal audits, and corrective action. He didn't even examine one corrective action yet he reported the CA system is functional.

3. I didn't care if I had major NCs, minor NCs, or no NCs at all. I just came away with the feeling that the auditor didn't thoroughly examine the requirements of the clauses. If he had made a moderately aggressive effort to audit the system I wouldn't be as upset as I am.

 

[Sam]

IMO, I would forward your previous post to your CB so that they know how you feel; or you could request a witness audit next time.
The "rules" define what parts of the TS2 are to be audited each time. If your auditor does not have a documented report indicating he has covered the required items, then as you feel, he did not do jhis job.

 

[RCW]

Clarification please

IMO, I would forward your previous post to your CB so that they know how you feel; or you could request a witness audit next time.
The "rules" define what parts of the TS2 are to be audited each time. If your auditor does not have a documented report indicating he has covered the required items, then as you feel, he did not do jhis job.

Sorry Sam, still trying to learn the abbreviations. CB? TS2?

 

[tomvehoski]

CB = Certification Body (registrar)
TS2 = ISO/TS 16949: 2000

I've had several similar experiences. Last one where I am now, the auditor loves the company, says we are the benchmark for the industry, do everything great..... so he doesn't have to go into depth. While I observed, a glaring, yet minor, NC came up he completly ignored. Worst was when he sent the audit report, he had never modified it from the last company he audited. It discussed at length our welding area, where we design electronics. Management is happy though that we get to keep our certificate. Very non-value-added in my opinion.

Had several similar instances at other clients also. Have also seen the opposite side where they nitpick everything. That is why when I was recommending auditors I would pick the auditor (firm but fair) and go with the registrar they worked for (many contracted for several).

Tom

 

[mooser]

I also had an auditor who came 3 times and each time he would find less than the time before. The trouble was I knew, because of layoffs that there were more things coming up in our internal audits (I also knew other things that were not audited that were problems). This auditor was more interested in tellings stories of his personal life or his rotten employer. All the management was happy because they pasted without hassle. Improving there system was their upmost concern at the time.

Mooser

 

[Al Rosen]

This is more of a vent than a question but hey, that's part of what this forum is for anyway isn't it? (whoops, that's a question)

I just recently went through an ISO9000:2000 surveillance audit two days before Christmas (HO HO HO!). Within an hour from the start of the audit I could tell the auditor was already thinking about his Christmas travel plans and not the audit he was to perform. We did get 2 NCs but they were such minor piddly things it was a joke.

Of course management is happier than a clam that the company "passed the test" and gets to keep its certificate. After the auditor had left, one of the upper management hot shots was bragging that he knew it was going to be easy and there was no way the company would fail (such business foresight!). In my opinion, my company got ripped off by just receiving a "buff and a shine".

Has anybody else felt their auditor was too soft on them? Did you do anything about it? (I said I wasn't going to ask questions but I just can't resist.)

Be careful about what you ask for, you may get it.

 

[barb butrym]

Have been on both sides........so maybe I can shed some light.

Not all auditors use the same techniques...I consider mine a softer friendly approach (registrars with the new standards encourage less intrusive, confronting, more friendly techniques) NOT to say excessive personal info is appropriate, its NOT..... I don't write up nit picky stuff, i typically point it out, and note it on my trail. Some 1 off stuff is obviously from "nerves", again, I leave it alone if internal audits are good and don't show the same. Confidence in a company allows that. Less stuff is required than implied control.....so if it works, and isn't the best practice..so what.....it works for them!!!! CA and Internal audits MUST be in good shape, and checked every time....also Management review/responsibilities.....................

You would be surprised how much evidence I can observe, without looking like it...so becareful what you say there..........We don't "live" there so some obvious stuff to you isn't as glaring......not to say it shouldn't have been in your case.

I am now revisiting my performance Dec 23rd.....company choice of dates, not mine. If anything I was more detailed, because i was aware of my distraction.

If you feel the auditor was lacking and you don't want to complain, simply request a new set of eyes.

ALL THAT SAID
I have also been on the recieving end and its frustrating to watch.....I typically use the same registrar so I only see it where there is already someone else already in place...and I do complain on behalf of the company for blatant issues...and sometimes "off side" as a consultant.