Having faith in your Layered Process Auditors - Pencil whipping audits

L

longhorn man

#1
Does anyone have an issue with your auditors pencil whipping through your audits? I had three audits done from different levels for the same area today and three different answers. Does anyone have a list of questions that they would share for an example of questions? My company is a job shop, not an assembly line like Chysler or GM. Does anyone else have this situation?
Thanks
 
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Jim Wynne

Staff member
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#2
Re: Having faith in your Layered Process Auditors.

Does anyone have an issue with your auditors pencil whipping through your audits? I had three audits done from different levels for the same area today and three different answers. Does anyone have a list of questions that they would share for an example of questions? My company is a job shop, not an assembly line like Chysler or GM. Does anyone else have this situation?
Thanks
There's nothing inherently wrong with getting different answers from different auditors, so long as they aren't contradictory. Furthermore, lists of questions (checklists, e.g.) might increase the likelihood of congruence between the findings of different auditors, but they might also mask issues that aren't covered in the lists.

Did the three auditors get together and discuss their results?
 
#3
Re: Having faith in your Layered Process Auditors.

Does anyone have an issue with your auditors pencil whipping through your audits? I had three audits done from different levels for the same area today and three different answers. Does anyone have a list of questions that they would share for an example of questions? My company is a job shop, not an assembly line like Chysler or GM. Does anyone else have this situation?
Thanks
The sad reality of LPAs is that they become such a pencil whipping exercise! And that's not just m view - that's from the people who were the first to implement it at Chrysler..........others have said the same thing. It's not a matter of changing questions, it's the whole concept of keep asking the same thing over at such a high frequency (per shift, etc) and expecting people to 'go along with it'.......

It's even less applicable to a job shop than an assembly line - plus the LPA thing is fundamentally wrong at catching anything but low hanging fruit!
 

Kales Veggie

People: The Vital Few
#4
Does anyone have an issue with your auditors pencil whipping through your audits? I had three audits done from different levels for the same area today and three different answers. Does anyone have a list of questions that they would share for an example of questions? My company is a job shop, not an assembly line like Chysler or GM. Does anyone else have this situation?
Thanks
If you are using LPA:

1) does the audit take more than 15 min?
2) does the audit sheet have more than 12 questions?
3) are the questions allow open answers? (not yes/no).
4) the questions have been developed by a team familiar with the "risks"
5) the questions are not specific?
6) Management is not interested in the results and follow-up action.
7) Program is ran by quality only.

If the above is true, your risk of pencil whipping is significant.

The LPA questions should be concise, define what is compliant and not compliant, be based on the risk to your customer and your company.

An open ended questions such as "Are all operators were their required PPE?" or "Are all rabbits ran at the beginning of the shift?" are useless, be requirement is not clear. "All" is difficult to determine.

A good question would be (all depending on your situation):

Q: Are the 3 rabbits for the leak tester in station 4 ran at the beginning of each shift, has the operator recorded the resulting values on the check sheet and were actions taken and recorded when values are outside the specification?

WHY: not running the rabbits can cause NC parts being shipping to the customer.

HOW: ask the operator and review the check sheet at station 4.
 

Kales Veggie

People: The Vital Few
#5
Re: Having faith in your Layered Process Auditors.

The sad reality of LPAs is that they become such a pencil whipping exercise! And that's not just m view - that's from the people who were the first to implement it at Chrysler..........others have said the same thing. It's not a matter of changing questions, it's the whole concept of keep asking the same thing over at such a high frequency (per shift, etc) and expecting people to 'go along with it'.......

It's even less applicable to a job shop than an assembly line - plus the LPA thing is fundamentally wrong at catching anything but low hanging fruit!
I completely disagree with AndyN (and we have since we started discussion this here a couple of year ago). LPA is be very valuable tool. I have seen several very effective implementation.

LPA are at a completely different level than "internal auditing".
 

bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
Trusted Information Resource
#6
Re: Having faith in your Layered Process Auditors.

I completely disagree with AndyN (and we have since we started discussion this here a couple of year ago). LPA is be very valuable tool. I have seen several very effective implementation.
I have seen both effective and marginal LPAs. Much like any other quality system tool, it has a lot to do with expectations from the top and corporate culture.

Different answers can be based on different focus of the auditor - maybe based on what they have been burned on in the past, trying to prevent it where they are auditing - and the fact that it is sampling, and they may have sampled differently.

If they are finding things that legitimately need fixed (or at least predominately are legitimate), then they are really doing their job. It keeps you from doing it all the week before an audit.
 
#7
Bob's points are well made. I agree, Kees, that LPAs can be an effective tool. I suspect what you are part of the reason they work in your experience, added to what Bob is describing - the 'right' culture.

So, really, the issue isn't much to do with checklists or with getting consistency, it's a lot more to do with that old 'management commitment' etc.
 

bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
Trusted Information Resource
#8
People watch two big things in a layered process audit system: How seriously the upper levels take their portion of the audit, and how seriously the action items are reviewed and fixed. If either is taken half heartedly, then the downward spiral begins.
 

Caster

An Early Cover
Trusted Information Resource
#9
People watch two big things in a layered process audit system: How seriously the upper levels take their portion of the audit, and how seriously the action items are reviewed and fixed. If either is taken half heartedly, then the downward spiral begins.

Nicely said - same applies to parenting.
 
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