Help a newbie to develop a QMS (Quality Management System)

[JaneB]

Hello all and happy new year.

I did seek advice during my documents preparation for ISO certification. I completed and submitted it to an auditor for review.
I have attached a report summary. It may look a bit vague but please I wish to have your comments to enable me tidy up my manual. Our scope of work - lighting consulting & electrical engineers (design works).
Thanks

It's difficult to say without seeing your manual. But if this report is basically saying in its long list of 'not defined/missing' that ALL of the things it's highlighting ought to be in a single place (your quality manual), I disagree. It's not a very helpful report, frankly - it says 'there's a problem' but without any suggestion of how to fix, nor why it's a 'problem'. It's an auditor's point of view.

 

[npryde]

Thanks very much JaneB.
My reason for opting to create a purchasing procedure is not just to pacify the auditor. I intend to use it to control any sub consultancy we may contract.
I will sit with the auditor for some clarification. He used words like "missing", "not defined" and "not found". I will need to know if he is referring to the documents or reference of the procedures in the manual.
I will update you all after the meetings.
I am very grateful with all your help.

 

[kev4791]

Hi npryde,

Out of curiosity how did you go about getting the initial audit of your quality manual. I don't want to commit too much to a CB just yet as still getting some quotes for auditing etc. I hope to have my company's manual with procedures etc at a reasonable first draft stage in the next week or so and would like this reviewed 'professionally' prior to submitting to top management.

Without being too specific how much did this cost you?

 

[Colin]

Kev, there are any number of professional consultants here on the Cove who can give you a review of your QMS. I know of a few who would be interested .....

 

[npryde]

Kev,
Not an audit in the true meaning of the word. The documents were submitted to a consultant for review(let me call it examination), to find out if our documents are ready for an audit from a certification firm.

Truly, you've got the pros here in the cove....seek no further. Just make the request.

 

[kev4791]

OK thanks guys. Will see how I get on over the next week or so.

 

[JaneB]

Kev,
Not an audit in the true meaning of the word. The documents were submitted to a consultant for review(let me call it examination), to find out if our documents are ready for an audit from a certification firm.

Was it really a consultant, or was it someone who's basically an auditor 'acting' sort of as a consultant. Because with a good consultant reviewing/examing/checking I'd expect a lot more useful and helpful report than simply saying 'x not defined'! That's OK (and par) in an external audit report but not from a consultant.

Plus, quite honestly, "checking" documentation without knowing what's in the system itself/asking questions is not that useful an activity, particulary if it takes place remotely.

You could have wonderful doco (theoretically) and a crap system and vice versa. I've even had a CB desk-check auditor (I suspect an office person with a rigid checklist actually) come back from something similar saying a lot of silly things like your list, including 'the documentation does not define how X is reported back to top management'... in a tiny system where Top Management was doing it all the and there was no one else to report to. (We went for a different CB who had brighter people on board.)

 

[kev4791]

Hi JaneB,

So are you saying its not really worth getting a pre-implementation review of the QMS, but just better to go ahead, let it run a couple of months and get a pre-registration audit??? Atleast that way someone can look at your QMS in situ.

 

[JaneB]

Hi JaneB,
So are you saying its not really worth getting a pre-implementation review of the QMS, but just better to go ahead, let it run a couple of months and get a pre-registration audit??? Atleast that way someone can look at your QMS in situ.

Unless the person doing the review is a/skilled and b/ not just an auditor or a 'document by the numbers' type calling themselves a consultant, I think there's very little point in spending any money on it!
Now, if you get someone what knows what they're doing and can give you an expert opinion and some helpful advice (you've not met all requirements in this procedure and here might be a way/ways to do so, or 'hey you don't need 3 procedures here, 1 would do it' ) then it's worth it. But if not... you could end up writing a whole ream more doco for little point.

better to go ahead, let it run a couple of months and get a pre-registration audit??? Atleast that way someone can look at your QMS in situ.

I don't quite understand what you mean here about the "let it run and the pre-reg audit'... why would you have a pre-reg audit, when having your external audit IS in two stages: Stage 1 involves (among other things) looking at the documentation in situ.

 

[JaneB]

I don't mean, by the way, that it isn't possible to be both an auditor and a consultant. Some people do it and do it well. But some don't.