Help me understand how to define Processes

[John Broomfield]

Re: Help me to understand how I can define Processes

Thira,

I feel your pain. I am currently just a technician/internal auditor for my company and it rests on me to define our processes as we never have before. It is extremely difficult to do this when you are not upper management and do not have access to all business operations and are receiving minimal, if any, help. Unfortunately, many companies management do not realize the importance of defining their processes and how they interact and leave it in the hands of those that really should not be doing the work, i.e... an intern or a tech.

Mazoku,

Many quality professionals isolate themselves as they write procedures for others to follow.

This is a mistake, of course, and may reflect a lack of authority (power) to fulfill the responsibility. Many people in authority do not know how to delegate some of their authority so the delegates can do their job. Perhaps you need to draft a formal delegation of authority sufficient to develop the management system?

You need authority to consult with the process owner who knows how the process actually works and then to ask reps of the process team to verify this. And to work with the process owner to resolve any reported inaccuracies.

You need authority to ask the process owner to correct any nonconformity within two weeks and to report the nonconformity for corrective action if it takes longer than two weeks.

As a competent auditor you can do this. We should not expect any of a manager's authority until we are competent to use it well.

John

 

[drgnrider]

Re: Help me to understand how I can define Processes

I agree completely with John about authority. I am not "Management", my official title is: "Management Representative and Calibration Coordinator" (technician). I report to the QA manager for my regular duties. Both the Quality and Environmental Manuals give me my authority for the aspects of ISO to report directly to the Factory Director (FD), and operate on his behalf, and by-pass both the QA and EHS managers. The FD and I have signed both documents.

That being said, I work WITH all the managers to get the proper outcome of the documents that are needed and schedule audits. If there are issues the manager and I are unable to come to a compromise on, we take them to the FD.

 

[Mazoku]

Re: Help me to understand how I can define Processes

Mazoku,

Many quality professionals isolate themselves as they write procedures for others to follow.

This is a mistake, of course, and may reflect a lack of authority (power) to fulfill the responsibility. Many people in authority do not know how to delegate some of their authority so the delegates can do their job. Perhaps you need to draft a formal delegation of authority sufficient to develop the management system?

You need authority to consult with the process owner who knows how the process actually works and then to ask reps of the process team to verify this. And to work with the process owner to resolve any reported inaccuracies.

You need authority to ask the process owner to correct any nonconformity within two weeks and to report the nonconformity for corrective action if it takes longer than two weeks.

As a competent auditor you can do this. We should not expect any of a manager's authority until we are competent to use it well.

John

The problem(s) right now are that we don't have defined processes or process owners. I have no authority to delegate nor do I have authority to draft a delegation of authority. I haven't been asked to define our processes or anything but as an auditor I think it would be nice to know what they are and how they interact so I have been trying to figure it out. I have never done a process audit before, only departmental as that is how I was trained to do it. With the upcoming 2015 standard it seems the process approach is going to be more mandatory than a mere suggestion. So we need to figure something out anyway.

As for non-conformances and corrective actions, they are a joke here, literally.. When I performed the audit on Engineering last I found that the Engineering Manager was making decisions in which their procedure stated was the presidents to make, not his. I wrote up a Corrective Action Request for this. After about a year, several times going back and forth with him and never getting anything done, he finally said "I was just joking, the president does make that decision." Though he obviously said this just because he wanted to avoid the Corrective Action, Management said it was ok and the Corrective Action was cancelled. This is the kind of stuff I deal with here...

 

[John Broomfield]

Re: Help me to understand how I can define Processes

The problem(s) right now are that we don't have defined processes or process owners. I have no authority to delegate nor do I have authority to draft a delegation of authority. I haven't been asked to define our processes or anything but as an auditor I think it would be nice to know what they are and how they interact so I have been trying to figure it out. I have never done a process audit before, only departmental as that is how I was trained to do it. With the upcoming 2015 standard it seems the process approach is going to be more mandatory than a mere suggestion. So we need to figure something out anyway.

As for non-conformances and corrective actions, they are a joke here, literally.. When I performed the audit on Engineering last I found that the Engineering Manager was making decisions in which their procedure stated was the presidents to make, not his. I wrote up a Corrective Action Request for this. After about a year, several times going back and forth with him and never getting anything done, he finally said "I was just joking, the president does make that decision." Though he obviously said this just because he wanted to avoid the Corrective Action, Management said it was ok and the Corrective Action was cancelled. This is the kind of stuff I deal with here...

Mazoku,

I was responding to what you said: "it rests on me to define our processes".

You seem to have responsibility without the requisite authority to fulfill your responsibility. Clearly this is not good for the organization or your career.

When a manager gives you a responsibility for "defining our processes" you can ask for the authority to fulfill that responsibility.

Go back and ask the manager help you to:

• Determine the sequence and interaction of processes needed for the management system to fulfill the organization's mission (see clause 4.1)
• Name the person, who knows well each of the key processes, as the Process Owner
• With the authority to work with the process owners and process teams

Task A is largely what your organization does to get work, do work and get paid (converting customer needs into cash in the bank). That and your study of ISO 9001 will determine the key processes that are essential for your management system to be effective (did your CB ignore clause 4.1?)

Once any other employee knows you do not have the authority (delegated or earned) sufficient to get them to make changes they may ignore you. This is not personal, it is a matter of priorities.

From what you have added, your internal audit programme needs objectives defined by (or at least approved by) top management. They may then show their commitment for audit and any corrective actions flowing from audits.

I wish you every success,

John

 

[drgnrider]

Re: Help me to understand how I can define Processes

<snip> I have no authority to delegate nor do I have authority to draft a delegation of authority <snip>

The first one should come from Top Management, this will define their commitment to this program. As I posted earlier, mine comes via the Quality Manual (QM), if your QM does not set your authority, get something written from Top Management.
From what it sounds like, this is the first step you need to take, because without this, all you will ever do is run into walls.

As for non-conformances and corrective actions, they are a joke here, literally.. When I performed the audit on Engineering last I found that the Engineering Manager was making decisions in which their procedure stated was the presidents to make, not his. I wrote up a Corrective Action Request for this. After about a year, several times going back and forth with him and never getting anything done, he finally said "I was just joking, the president does make that decision." Though he obviously said this just because he wanted to avoid the Corrective Action, Management said it was ok and the Corrective Action was cancelled. This is the kind of stuff I deal with here...

Who controls the CA process? Do you (company) maintain a CA register? if a register is in place, how do they note the CA resolution or do they just omit that entry?

If an ISO NC is noted on an audit does your procedure call for a CA? Can you follow the NC trail through the stated process? If not, this is another NC.

It sounds as if there was an actual decision, if the Engineering Manager did not make this decisions, does he have an audit trail to show who did? If not, another NC or at least an opportunity they need to correct?

 

[Mazoku]

Re: Help me to understand how I can define Processes

Mazoku,

I was responding to what you said: "it rests on me to define our processes".

You seem to have responsibility without the requisite authority to fulfill your responsibility. Clearly this is not good for the organization or your career.

When a manager gives you a responsibility for "defining our processes" you can ask for the authority to fulfill that responsibility.

Go back and ask the manager help you to:

• Determine the sequence and interaction of processes needed for the management system to fulfill the organization's mission (see clause 4.1)
• Name the person, who knows well each of the key processes, as the Process Owner
• With the authority to work with the process owners and process teams

Task A is largely what your organization does to get work, do work and get paid (converting customer needs into cash in the bank). That and your study of ISO 9001 will determine the key processes that are essential for your management system to be effective (did your CB ignore clause 4.1?)

Once any other employee knows you do not have the authority (delegated or earned) sufficient to get them to make changes they may ignore you. This is not personal, it is a matter of priorities.

From what you have added, your internal audit programme needs objectives defined by (or at least approved by) top management. They may then show their commitment for audit and any corrective actions flowing from audits.

I wish you every success,

John

Sorry, perhaps I chose the wrong wording. No-one actually gave me the responsibility to define our processes. I only wish to understand our "real" processes through my curiosity as an auditor. Currently, we "claim" to have processes, if you look at our quality manual it says we have seven: management, engineering, sales, QA, Production, Purchasing, and administration. I think these are just departments... not processes. They have a small flowchart in the manual that says how the departments interact.

Currently, I do about 7 audits a year, one for each department, sometimes I split a department up. Doing the audits is the only time I can get away from my usual job duties as a technician. My boss would probably kill me if I even spent 5 minutes in another department asking about their processes.

I wasn't trying to complain or saying I should be doing something about it and sorry if I made it seem that way, I was originally just trying to sympathize with Thira.

I think the whole thing is funny actually because I never realized the state of our QMS until I found this site. Now that I'm learning about how QMS's should be run I know how messed up ours is and would like to do something about it, but can't.

 

[John Broomfield]

Re: Help me to understand how I can define Processes

Sorry, perhaps I chose the wrong wording. No-one actually gave me the responsibility to define our processes. I only wish to understand our "real" processes through my curiosity as an auditor. Currently, we "claim" to have processes, if you look at our quality manual it says we have seven: management, engineering, sales, QA, Production, Purchasing, and administration. I think these are just departments... not processes. They have a small flowchart in the manual that says how the departments interact.

Currently, I do about 7 audits a year, one for each department, sometimes I split a department up. Doing the audits is the only time I can get away from my usual job duties as a technician. My boss would probably kill me if I even spent 5 minutes in another department asking about their processes.

I wasn't trying to complain or saying I should be doing something about it and sorry if I made it seem that way, I was originally just trying to sympathize with Thira.

I think the whole thing is funny actually because I never realized the state of our QMS until I found this site. Now that I'm learning about how QMS's should be run I know how messed up ours is and would like to do something about it, but can't.

Mazoku,

I am sorry for misunderstanding the nature of your problem. It is good to see that as the internal auditor you are not being asked to compromise your independence by also having to develop the management system.

It seems that your management rep has a lot of work to do. It is a pity your CB ignored clause 4.1 for up to 14 years! If ISO 9001:2015 eliminates the mandatory Man. Rep. then your top managers have lots to do and your CB will finally have to audit your top management.

You could help them by auditing what they have done or not done against clause 4.1. Before that, are you going to obtain top management objectives for your internal audit programme?

Best wishes,

John

 

[thira7]

Re: Help me to understand how I can define Processes

The difficulty is that the NGO does not have any process doucumented and is the first time who someone tries to do that here

 

[John Broomfield]

Re: Help me to understand how I can define Processes

The difficulty is that the NGO does not have any process documented and is the first time who someone tries to do that here

thira7,

You may find that several if not most processes are governed by undocumented procedures.

People often know what to do by virtue of their training and experience.

Please respect the undocumented procedure and only document processes where necessary for effective planning, operation and control.

You may want to adopt a rule for deciding which parts of the management system are documented:

• Result is not easily reversed
• Result is injury or worse
• Essential for corporate memory

Adjust this rule so it is right for your NGO.

For example, is the NGO documenting its management system because it plans to grow rapidly and many new employees are expected? Or is the NGO trying to standardize its work so it can learn and improve its work?

John

 

[Mazoku]

Re: Help me to understand how I can define Processes

Mazoku,

I am sorry for misunderstanding the nature of your problem. It is good to see that as the internal auditor you are not being asked to compromise your independence by also having to develop the management system.

It seems that your management rep has a lot of work to do. It is a pity your CB ignored clause 4.1 for up to 14 years! If ISO 9001:2015 eliminates the mandatory Man. Rep. then your top managers have lots to do and your CB will finally have to audit your top management.

You could help them by auditing what they have done or not done against clause 4.1. Before that, are you going to obtain top management objectives for your internal audit programme?

Best wishes,

John

Probably dumb questions, but what is CB? and what do you mean by top management objectives for your internal audit programme? Probably things I should know as an internal auditor...