Help with an Internal Audit for ISO9001:2000

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rfunkyman

#11
Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one suffering the effects of management irresponsibility. My company also has a policy of; don't ask, don't tell, you fix it! We lost our QSM and he also left me with a bunch of gaps, including an audit deficit. I pressed on with some help (you will always need this if resources are lacking) and managed to complete the pending audits in time for our surveillance audit. I got hammered by the auditor and got a minor nonconformity for leaving things till the last minute. Losing the QSM is no justification for neglecting the QMS. I’m certain that if we had not completed the audits we would have received a major. Getting an "advisory non-conformance" was not in your favor. It just gives management another break and you get the short end of the stick.
As for the audits, you don't have to find defects to have a successful audit, use the “what if?” approach. I've worked in my field for over 20 years and know our system inside and out. If everything seems to be well, I approach it with; "What if the ....???". If you don't find something in the documentation or process, you'll probably find it in an employee who may not be as competent (ISO 9001:2000 6.2.2) to handle the "what if" should the situation arise. Remember to keep the “what if” within reason.
Good luck on your solo flight; I know exactly what you're facing. That's what brought me to this forum.
 
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Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#12
In my opinion, before you even start to think about the internal audit process, the first thing that needs to happen is management (leadership???) training on ISO 9001 and the principles that it's based on. I'm not joking. Until you have commitment from top management, you'll be spinning your wheels trying to get the system up and running.
Howste, I agree with you that should be the path if we were talking about an organization that would want to do the right thing. But, according to the OP, they could care less about quality.

Why would the management (there is no leadership here obviously) change their ways, if, as dysfunctional they seem to be, they keep their certification in good standing? There is no incentive for their managers to change their way. And that is why, the external auditor did this organization a big disservice. Value added? In whose's perspective? Short term or long term?

All these people who brag about deceiving dazzling auditors (see this other post) don't realize (or don't care) they are part of the problem.
 
C

chaosweary

#13
I empathize with the OP. Going on about management committment and trying to "re-educate" or "persuade" executive management to quality thinking is IMHO not even an option worth persuing unless your Tony Robbins. Your talking western culture here. After working in three different industries all of the 5 companies I worked for got their certifications because customers wanted it not on their own volition. By the posts I see in here there appears to be actually a small minority of companies with Leadership 100% behind the quality system and certifications, good luck finding them in this recessive economy! (*the next thing people will be telling you is to work for a different company that supports the quality system :bonk:) OK off the soap box.
Now back to the OP. You must have some original records from the original audits that were done for your phase 1 and 2 audits. Not that it matters now but if they exist you need to start keeping the audit records all in one spot. You then need to use the threat of loss of certification and potential loss in market share increase in customer complaints to secure more resources, time & manpower, get support from management tell them its your way or they will lose certification. After giving them a doom and gloom picture (I need resources or else presentation) put together the qms documentation quality manual, quality policy, 6 required procedures, then develop an audit program starting with your audit plan. Tons of this stuff right here in the cove. The company I am in has had certification since 1994with management committment fairly absent. It can be done.
 
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Darren Durney

#14
OK first of all I know I have pushed some dirt on here but pent up frustration does that sometimes.

The audits in my opinion were never done, afetr going through the small amount of snippets that I could find I have found no evidence of any done whatsoever, the management review was also never done and this was also a minor non-conformance.

Yes I agree totally that he shoudl have made this a major non-conformance as it would have highlighted and helped the situation.

I am currently re-writing the audit form to make it a bit easier.

I dont get help from anyone here and what i mean by they are not interested is this (example is while I was on vacation 2 weeks ago the GM sent out parts that were quite clearly not good, when I came back they had been rejected by the customer and were returned to us of which I fully expect, I was then asked the question of what i am doing to stop these problems. This happened while I was away hjow could i do anything about it. Works Manager has no interest if something breaks down and I raise an non-confromance ahgainst one of the sections he avoids it and it is left for me to go and do the investigation. Hence their is only me doing this.)

It feels like bashing your head against a brick wall, but I have the experience of this happening and hopefully sooner rather than later they will come around to my way of thinking.

As for the Audits again I dont know if they were done or not all I know is that I must get them done to avoid any further nasties arising
 
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Darren Durney

#15
Chaosweary there is nothing mate not a thing, I know it can be done with lack of management input have done it ion the past, but not here I struggle to get even a budget to allow me to purchase inspection equipment like verniers etc... and I am having to take things apart and repair them to the best of my abilities. But thats another story for another forum, I have been looking at a few different forms on here which might aid me, and thanks Jennifer for the form it looks good will see what I can come up with.

Apprecviate all the comments made so far certainly gives you hope that others out there understand the situations that we as quality face.
 
G

gooofii

#17
I am very near to what you are saying here, I am rewriting the QM as well and of course there are a lot of gaps I found..don't worry not only your managers are like that ..anyway, I think also that the Audit for should be as simple as possible, because to be honest usually they don't bother to do it. I've just finished writing the procedure of QS Audit, and here is I attached to you my Internal Audit form, we use it as Auditing for each procedure by its own and also be used as Auditing for all the procedures when connecting to each others. You might found it looks simple but it does the job:vfunny:

Hope this helps. Contact me if you need help in any other procedures as I am almost finished with all of them now, am just stucked in one..:bonk:
 

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Darren Durney

#18
A few more questions:

Was the BSI audit a preassessment audit? No it wasn't Cert already in place

Do you have an internal audit procedure? Yes I have attached it in the first post

Are the results of audits covered during Management Review? Lol no nothing when I tried to conduct one it was a shambles and I ended up stopping the meeting and told them we would return to it when all the relevant information is available
Gooofii thanks for the help much appreciated I will give it a go maybe it might be the best to try and start off simple and the evolve things instead of me trying to think they might understand.


If I have missed any questions I apologise I will try and read through everything again tonight and reply, but to be honest the short end of the stick lies with me no commitment from Top Management and I think that is why so many have passed before me, but I am stubborn and will plod on if my willpower will allow me too.
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#19
I have a printed shot from Monty Python's Search for the Holy Grail hanging up in my office. It's this one.

We've all probably felt that way at some point! You're at the castle, you're supposed to belong there, you're trying to do right, and you get nasty stuff thrown on you for your troubles.

Most of us reach a point, sooner or later (or all the time!) where we wonder if it's worth going through all of that.

The dysfunction you describe may, or may not be something you can do much about. Not having audits done by this stage is very bad news... it's beginning to sound as though your predecessor may have felt the same frustration you are, like in the picture, but it's hard to know if he was able to make progress or if this is an impenetrable fortress. In any case, what's left is what you've got. Many organizations have a culture that resists the philosophies we try to bring in. It can take several tries by several QA Managers to get to the same level that other organizations manage in much less time. This is seldom about us altogether; the best we can do is respond to the stresses positively and move forward to the extent we're able and allowed.

In all you do, make your plans and setups usable for someone of average education and experience. Simplify as best you can. Design a system that's as easy to work with as possible, so if one day you decide you've had enough you can put this on your resume as something positive.
:2cents:
 
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