Help with MU and ISO17025 basics - Hired as a CMM programmer

T

True Position

#1
My appologies for the very generic post, but I've been reading these forums, and often feel that I'm completely lost.

To begin, I was hired as a CMM programmer, aparently in my employers view, that makes me the quality manager and responsible for obtaining ISO17025.

Note: We are limiting the scope to our dimensional lab, and our calibrations are done by an outside 17025 source.

If anybody has some examples of how they calculated measurement uncertainty for: micrometers, calipers, height gage, CMMs, indicators, and gage blocks(for these I was just going to use the statement on the calibration statement since they are just used to set a indicator when we measure with them), you'd really be helping out someone who's in way over their head.

Measuring I'm alright at, but this paperwork is driving me mad.

Would taking the listed uncertainty on my calibration statement then running 10-20 measurements on a known standard, calculating the SD of that, and adding that to the inherant uncertainty(via the statement) be accurate? That would seem to be a lot of double dipping and may give me some awefully high numbers.

Any links, book recommendations, reading lists, etc are highly appreciated. If anybody is in the DC/Baltimore/Harford County MD area, drinks are on me if I get to pick your brain a bit!

My sincerest appologies for basically spamming a very nice forum, but, I figure I'll ask before I give in.
 
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apestate

Quite Involved in Discussions
#2
Hawat

Your post is ideal. You'll find what you need and want to know in previous threads and in discussion with the experts here.

I think you'll enjoy measurement uncertainty because you are a metrologist.

If standards compliance is really what your boss wants, consider yourself promoted.

The first question that pops up is whether or not it is wise to pursue ISO 17025 accredited certification. The deciding factor would be that certification as a calibration laboratory is prerequisite to doing business, well, as a calibration laboratory.

I know almost nothing about ISO 17025, hawat. However, my second recommendation is to purchase the standard to whatever system or set of requirements you wish to use. www.techstreet.com

There's a forum on measurement uncertainty at The Cove.
http://elsmar.com/Forums/forumdisplay.php?f=135

There's more to say but right now I'm having a particularly spectacular windows meltdown and must reboot.
 
T

True Position

#3
atetsade said:
Hawat

Your post is ideal. You'll find what you need and want to know in previous threads and in discussion with the experts here.

I think you'll enjoy measurement uncertainty because you are a metrologist.

If standards compliance is really what your boss wants, consider yourself promoted.

The first question that pops up is whether or not it is wise to pursue ISO 17025 accredited certification. The deciding factor would be that certification as a calibration laboratory is prerequisite to doing business, well, as a calibration laboratory.

I know almost nothing about ISO 17025, hawat. However, my second recommendation is to purchase the standard to whatever system or set of requirements you wish to use. www.techstreet.com

There's a forum on measurement uncertainty at The Cove.
http://elsmar.com/Forums/forumdisplay.php?f=135

There's more to say but right now I'm having a particularly spectacular windows meltdown and must reboot.

Thanks for the upbeat post, I was pretty depressed writing that first post. And coming back to the thread isn't helping. Anyway.

As to measurement uncertainty, I basically understand the concept of it, and I guess I've always just allowed for it by making my measurements a few percentage points away from the mean, so if I got any measurements right at the limit I defaulted to rejecting, since I know if I were an incoming inspector(which I basically am now) I'd reject the marginal parts. No NC product shall pass.

As to what standards to obtain, ISO 17025 covers more then calibration labs unfortunately, it also covers test labs. My employer, fairly enough, doesn't believe the 3 hours a day I average of billable CMM time is enough to counteract my salary/etc. To say nothing of the purchase and maintance of a 150k machine. When they've tried to sell CMM work, the question of: 'Are you ISO 17025? Are you A2LA?' come up. The response of: 'We are QS9000' doesn't cut it.

Luckily, we are only aiming for a pretty limited scope, no external calibrations of other gages, only a small selection of hand tools, a CMM, and an optical comparator. The big item by far is the CMM though.

I have the ISO17025:1999 standard, but it reads as mostly gibberish and the occasion familiar part on document control which was similar to QS9000(which was the system my previous employer was under, and this one was accredited to before I began)

For those that do know though, I'm assuming I can use the same quality manual, touched up, for this purpose correct? Or is the manual for QS signifigantly different the 17025? Any document quirks?
 

apestate

Quite Involved in Discussions
#4
Hawat!

Measurement uncertainty is the focus of my work this weekend. I've lobbied for an overhaul of the calibration system at my new position with a fabrication shop and gotten enough interest to put together a proposal.

http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=9159

I got started at this forum thread. It has dead links but is of use because it links to this thread:

http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=5689

I wish I could tell you more, but I can tell you I've got enough information off the internet to get started.

Incidentally, what does your company do? Do they really intend to certify the cal lab to ISO 17025? It's possible. Do you have a quality professional working at the company?

Again, you've come to the 1 and only place on the internet for this and don't hesitate to ask questions or ask for help.

I suggest looking into the NPL's Good Measurement Practice Beginners Guide to Uncertainty and NIST's Technical Bulletin 1297, Evaluating and Expressing the Uncertainty of NIST Measurement Results. Both of these documents are linked through the forum threads above.

I further suggest Quality Magazine article Quality_Mag_Uncertainty.pdf located in http://elsmar.com/pdf_files/uncertainty/ that's a good one.

As far as the paperwork goes, I feel your pain. When I was tasked with getting a company registered to ISO 9001:2000, I had no clue what ISO 9000 really was. We had inklings but no real basis.

I quickly found that consultants were wasting my time because I already had the ISO 9001:2000 document itself, and Marc's Elsmar Cove.

I second found that "packaged compliance" is a total ripoff that still gets my blood going. We bought a documentation set from some company for $700 and it was worthless, I used almost none of it.

In the end, after considerable difficulty and slow successes, I found that I was able to navigate quality management with the experience I'd gained in implementing a standard. Now I'm on my way to taking the test for CQE.

I'm interested in whether or not your boss is really determined to certify the cal lab to 17025.

As far as the drinks...

Cheers.
 

apestate

Quite Involved in Discussions
#5
Hawat

You beat me to the posting.

Anyway, there is a new version of 17025.
http://www.techstreet.com/cgi-bin/detail?product_id=1217365

I think the measurement uncertainty of the CMM will not be more difficult to calculate than that of caliper, micrometer, optical comparator, etc.

I wish I have seen ISO 17025 because I would really like to help.

Is there a good quality professional working at your company? How large is your company? What products/services does it provide? What is the purpose of pursuing ISO 17025/A2LA, is there going to be a large calibration business?

You stated that the 17025:1999 reads gibberish. :)

Read it anyway, and work to understand it. Read lots about it online. You'll soon see through the gibberish but probably never completely.

When you ask specific questions about the text of the standard on The Cove, be sure to include briefly the text of the standard verbatim. It's ok to reprint portions by re-typing so the details can be properly discussed.
 

apestate

Quite Involved in Discussions
#6

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T

True Position

#7
The main focus of the business is sorting/inspection type work. There are five locations for the company located throughout the US, mostly MI/OH/IN area. GM offered an exclusive sorting contract to the facility I work, but to get it, they needed to provide dimensional inspection services, specifically a CMM.

Since I am the only facility in the company that actually has an inspection lab and related tools, management doesn't really know what's involved in ISO17025, just that they need it. We have no full time, at least at this location, quality personal(excluding me). My requests for help have mostly been ignored internally.

Right now I am being requested to fill out a scope of accredidation so they can schedule/quotethe audit.. my head asplode. The scope will be limited to the dimensional inspection lab.

I do want to get this done for them, I hate feeling like I let the company that took a risk on me down. Right now, I'm spinning my wheels google searching MU and ISO17025, reading stuff that's either too vague, 'It's a system to certify labs!' or another page which is loaded with integral calculus, and it's been a long time since that made any sense to me. :)

I'm just happy it's for dimensional inspection only, I'd figure of all topics that would be one of the best covered with regards to 17025. I'm still having no luck finding a readable text on the document outside of the standard, the Guide to Uncertainty of Measurement, and other standards. Standards that make the PPAP book read like a can't put me down novel.

Thank you for the links though, I'll read through those tonight or tomorrow when I'm running some long programs I have scheduled. I do appreciate your help, and the help of whoever edited the thread title, it reads much better.
 

Hershal

Metrologist-Auditor
Staff member
Super Moderator
#8
Hawat,

Whether the lab seeks accreditation to ANS/ISO/IEC 17025 or not there are some things to consider.....

First, do NOT equate 17025 accreditation with A2LA.....A2LA is ONE accrediting body operating in the U.S., but the accreditation Standard is ANS/ISO/IEC 17025:2005.

The accrediting bodies operating or that can operate in the U.S. are:

IAS, NVLAP, A2LA, L-A-B, ACLASS, SCC/CLAS (Canada), and EMA (Mexico).

If you require a NACLA-recognized body your choices are IAS, L-A-B, and ACLASS. If you require global recognition by ILAC or a Region, your choices are: IAS, NVLAP, A2LA, SCC/CLAS, and EMA.

TALK TO ALL THE ACCREDITING BODIES.....Get quotes from all! The quotes will base on the published fee schedule, and should then estimate number of assessor days and various costs. REMEMBER, you have to give quotes to your customers and often bid for business.....should you require less of an accrediting body?

Obtain a copy of the ANS/ISO/IEC 17025:2005 Standard and read it then base on your existing QMS that is registered and add in the technical side.

As for MU, that is not too difficult. Take your readings, get the mean average, subtrat each reading from the mean, add those results, divide by n-1 and take square root to get your SD, then divide that by square root of n to obtain Type A. Each set of readings (e.g. 1", 6") will become its own Type A.

Type B will begin with the MU reported on your accredited calibration cert, divide that by two to return to standard uncertainty. Tempand other similar influences will be rectangular and so divided by square root of three. For temp as an example, the gage blocks are generally calibrated at 20 C, but you may uise them at 24 C, so take the 4 degress, divide by square root of three to arrive at that Type B contribution.

Once all Type A and B contributions are quantified, take each of them, square it, and add the results together then take the square root of the total. You are now at Standard Uncertainty. Degrees of freedom for Standard Uncertainty are effectively (not truly, but effectively) infinate so multiplying by two for Expanded Uncertainty is the norm.

Hope this helps.

Hershal
 
T

True Position

#9
Hershal, that more then helps, that was EXACTLY what I was looking for.

Now, you mention uncertanties at 1'', 6'', and such.

For something like a long travel caliper(we have a 18" digital), a 24 inch height gage, or the large measuring zone of my CMM; would you be required to calculate uncertanties over such small(1 inch) discreet areas? For my CMM that's a lot of testing and my calibration document from Zeiss shows the inherant uncertainty throughout the entire area, rarely fluxuating more then a few um even up to 600mm.

Would a statement near an inch, then 6 inches, then 12+ be acceptable and assuming if I do that I don't see much variation, just give wider ranges? I was sent a sample scope of acrediation by ACLASS, the samply company for micrometers simply used two sets: '0-6 inch and 6+ inches' and gave uncertanties for each set.

Also, if I have a bunch of instruments by the same manufacturer, can I assume they are the same assuming they were all calibrated by an accredited source and have the same uncertainty statements from them?

For heat variation as you mentioned, you mentioned thats a part of type B, now, while it's at work, iirc, my uncertainty statement for gage blocks was (some amount + some amount per inch of block). Now, heat variation is also the same way. My lab fluxuates at most 2 degree F according to my temperature circle charts. Would I take the maximum fluxuation I generally see in a week multiplied by the coeficient of thermal expansion, and add that to the static portion of the uncertainty, or just add some amount to the part that varries?

And Hershal, thank you so very much, you made my weekend.
 
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