Hole dimension out VS in tolerance

It Was I Who

Involved In Discussions
#1
Hi need some help from you guys :(

I have a customer complaint about a hole that the customer says is out of tolerance but i cant agree with him about that. :argue:
Here is the situation: The hole is a stamped hole in a plain steel material 4mm thick. On the drawing it says diameter 10 +/- 0,2 mm and nothing more, no cylindricity or perpendicularity just the diameter. We all know that a stamped hole has its cutting zone and it's shearing zone (I think it's called that) when the material more or less is ripping apart

So what he has done is that he has measured the hole (With the tips of a slide caliper) from the cutting side approx 0,5-0,8mm in to the hole and that side is 9,9mm in diameter, then he has done the same way on the shearing side and measured it to 10,56, and that's why he says it is out of tolerance, the hole is more or less conical (As always on a stamped part if not using fine stamping). but out from my perspective i would say that to determined the dimensional of the hole, out from what the drawing says i need to pass the biggest cylinder through the entire hole, and that results in that the hole is 9,9mm, my point is that you can't measure a part of the hole to say it is out of spec you need to measure the entire hole
Am i correct in my judgement or am i wrong?

Please if you can help me in this and perhaps point out the standard on how to determined the diameter of the hole i would Appreciate it very much

Best regards Tommy
 
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D

David DeLong

#2
Each cross section of the hole diameter is to be within specifications and it seems that in one area, at 10.56, it is out of specification. That is according to ASME Y14.5-2009 and earlier versions of the same standard.

Now that I said that, in a stamping operation, one cannot control the break but only the cut side. Good luck on this one.
 

It Was I Who

Involved In Discussions
#3
Thanks David
So what you are saying is that im right, if i understand you right
I mean that is way you are chose a stamping operation that you just need "that" kind of control of the hole, otherwise you had choosen a different kind of manufacturing if you had need to have total control of the whole hole
You dont have axcess to some europeen or international standards that i can refer to becuase i will need them to point out this to him

Best regards Tommy
 

Danny Hoover

Involved In Discussions
#4
Tommy,
I feel your pain. I have worked with sheet metal stamping in the past, and the "shear" vs. "break" did cause issues with some customers. Technically, the customer is right(even when he is wrong), but we were able to defend our checks by the gage pin go/nogo use.
That being said, we added sheet metal thickness into our quoting process and would specify which side of material was shear, or quoted an offline op. to drill/mill a cylinder if that was required.
Prior planning and signed off customer approval is very important.
DH
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#5
Excellent advice from an old sage that I received early in my ISO career is to always seek to learn exactly how your customer is going to measure your product and what measuring tools they are going to use. That will provide much less opportunity for questions like yours to come up.
 
#6
In the grand scheme of things, the customer is always right, of course. However, having said that, it is up to the supplier to ensure they fully understand the potential (let's say at the quoting stage) for the problem to be created and to clarify with the customer what they want. The customer may know nothing of the attributes of a stamped home vs a machined (drilled/bored) hole, but their "expectations" will be that the form is good all the way through - as David points out.

This is a vital lesson in understanding that customers don't know what they don't know (or the drawing would have been spec'd to allow for punching) and it's always the supplier's job to clarify - or face rejection. It's a costly lesson to learn, but make a huge difference to how you are perceived by customers.

My own experience of this taught me that it's far better to go through the spec with a fine toothcomb and clarify, before making any commitments to manufacture...
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#7
A reference to the appropriate dimensioning and tolerancing standard i.e.: ASME Y14.5M-1994, ASME Y14.5-2009, or ISO 1101 and associated documents could have avoided all this hassle.

One of the most ignored questions in contract review is: "Dear Customer, what standard must be used for he correct interpretation of your drawings??"
 
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It Was I Who

Involved In Discussions
#8
This part is Ppap approved and measured and approved by the customer as is, and there has never been any changes on the hole since the start so they have accepted the drawing with everything and with the mesuring protocol,and has not come back with any critic for it and it has been running in production for almost 7 years with this hole like this and they also replies that there is nothing wrong with the product "they are going to use it" but the hole is wrong :-( and there is a location of the hole for 2-3 mm so i don't see the point of messing with it
Tommy
 
P

PaulJSmith

#9
i don't see the point of messing with it
Tommy
Well, I think the point is that you have a customer who perceives they have non-conforming product. In order to keep that customer happy, you'll need to either change that perception, or correct the product. Ultimately, as others have said, I think you'll need to get clarification from your customer as to what is expected and acceptable, including method of measurement (acceptance criteria).
You're in a tough predicament, Tommy. Good luck.
 
M

michiganmike

#10
Tommy,
I'm working on a very similar issue right now. My customer is measuring a hole on the breakout side as too big even though the hole is in spec in the shear zone.

In the big picture there need to be a greater understanding in the engineering community about the type of characteristics that a stamping process yields. Technically, every stamped part is out of spec (assuming the typical tight tolerances I see). When measuring from the break side of the outer trim edges a part can be measured as too small. Of course, all holes that are not specified with a shave operation would be too big on the break side. To make it worse, stamping companies target the upper spec on hole size when selecting a punch size. This means that the shear zone with be near the USL, almost guaranteeing that the diameter will be above spec on the break side.

For most parts this does not matter. But the problem is that engineers do not realize what they are doing when designing a part and assume that tolerance is met on both sides. They don't realize that if the want the tolerance to be met on both sides and at all points in-between then they need to specify the hole with a shave operation. This will drive up tooling costs but if that's what they need for part function, so be it.

An ISO spec is needed for this!
 
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