How Big/How Small - Size limitation on a company being ISO 9001 certified?

[Jim Wynne]

Well, I think there is a minimum size limitation. As far as I know/have seen, all the price lists of CBs -which are based on man.dates- begin with at least 2 personnels.

Why?

Me and my colleagues have discussed over that and agreed on the QMR topic. You know, there must be a QMR if you are going to run a system, and the QMR cannot be the boss or the GM. So, at least, there must be a QMR and a GM, which makes 2 people.

But, there is no maximum size limitation for sure.

Why can't the boss or GM be the management representative?

 

[AndyN]

Well, I think there is a minimum size limitation. As far as I know/have seen, all the price lists of CBs -which are based on man.dates- begin with at least 2 personnel.

Maybe in Turkey, but accredited CBs who operate to the 'MD 5' Audit day charts, clearly show 1 is the minimum. Maybe it's better NOT to look at 'price lists'...

 

[suildur]

Why can't the boss or GM be the management representative?

Because, the QMR should be independent, in case to report to the top management on the performance of the QMS.

You may ask if this is written else where in the standard. Well, in clause 5.5.2;

"5.5.2 Management representative

... a member of the organization’s management ...

...

b) reporting to top management on the performance of the quality management system and any need for
improvement, and ..."

You may compare and relate it to the internal auditors' status where an internal auditor cannot audit own tasks. Why? Cause it's self service then, you do it, you check it!

As I have stated before that was our decision after a discussion. I am open to discuss other arguments.

Maybe in Turkey, but accredited CBs who operate to the 'MD 5' Audit day charts, clearly show 1 is the minimum. Maybe it's better NOT to look at 'price lists'...

By the way, it is not just in Turkey, I can clearly tell 2 British CBs and 2 JAS-ANZ accredited CBs.

Also, as you may -definitely- know, the price list is seen by ABs during audit

 

[Jim Wynne]

Because, the QMR should be independent, in case to report to the top management on the performance of the QMS.

You may ask if this is written else where in the standard. Well, in clause 5.5.2;

"5.5.2 Management representative

... a member of the organization’s management ...

...

b) reporting to top management on the performance of the quality management system and any need for
improvement, and ..."

You may compare and relate it to the internal auditors' status where an internal auditor cannot audit own tasks. Why? Cause it's self service then, you do it, you check it!

As I have stated before that was our decision after a discussion. I am open to discuss other arguments.

There is no requirement that prevents the top manager in an organization from being the management representative. The part you left out was "...a member of the organization's management who, irrespective of other responsibilties..." (My emphasis).

 

[gpainter]

Years back when I attended auditor training there was a company from South America that had only 3 people.

 

[AndyN]

Because, the QMR should be independent, in case to report to the top management on the performance of the QMS.

You may ask if this is written else where in the standard. Well, in clause 5.5.2;

"5.5.2 Management representative

... a member of the organization’s management ...

...

b) reporting to top management on the performance of the quality management system and any need for
improvement, and ..."

You may compare and relate it to the internal auditors' status where an internal auditor cannot audit own tasks. Why? Cause it's self service then, you do it, you check it!

As I have stated before that was our decision after a discussion. I am open to discuss other arguments.



By the way, it is not just in Turkey, I can clearly tell 2 British CBs and 2 JAS-ANZ accredited CBs.

Also, as you may -definitely- know, the price list is seen by ABs during audit

No requirement to be 'independent'! The definitive document on how many people can 'be audited' is the MD 5 - whether the AB audits price lists or not...

 

[Sidney Vianna]

One of the most memorable one person companies had started business only a few weeks before attaining registration. His attitude, a great one, is that he wanted to start off correctly so he didn't have to worry about breaking bad habits.

Call me cynical, but people quickly realize what auditors would like to hear.

I could bet some money this 1-man company had a CONTRACTUAL requirement of being certified, to satisfy a customer. I said this before: Implementing ISO 9001 as a model for a QMS requires a minimum level of structure and discipline, which is VERY HARD to attain in a very small organization.

I know the standard states that it can be implemented, irrespective of the size of the organization. But there is theory and the real world. Sometimes, they are at odds.

 

[db]

I have helped implment in companies as small as one, and as large as 4500. On either extremes there are challenges. Regardless of the organization size, you have to find the right balance between control and flexibility. And as the organization changes, that balance will also have to change. That is all part of maintaining and continually improving your QMS. That is also why understanding that management review is not just an exercise is so important.

 

[JaneB]

Well, I think there is a minimum size limitation.

Me and my colleagues have discussed over that and agreed on the QMR topic. You know, there must be a QMR if you are going to run a system, and the QMR cannot be the boss or the GM. So, at least, there must be a QMR and a GM, which makes 2 people.

I regret to advise that you and your colleagues are wrong.

There can and there have been one-person businesses certified. And YES the boss or the GM can - absolutely can!- be the QMR!! In many ways, who better?

 

[JaneB]

I have helped implment in companies as small as one, and as large as 4500. On either extremes there are challenges. Regardless of the organization size, you have to find the right balance between control and flexibility. And as the organization changes, that balance will also have to change. That is all part of maintaining and continually improving your QMS. That is also why understanding that management review is not just an exercise is so important.

Excellent advice, Dave, with which I agree. And the final point you make is such a wise one, I've highlighted it.