How BIG is Your Quality Manual? Now that I have your attention, Big = # of Pages

Gman2

Involved - Posts
#1
Your Quality Manual that is!
Anyway I just took a look at the manual I have inherited (2000 standard)
and it is a whopping 91 PAGES!!!!!
DAAAAAAAA!!!!!
It's killing me to read it, I keep waiting for Gandalf to appear in it somewhere or some Hobbits or someting!
Is it just me or is this thing a little looong??
We are not that large of a company either, around 35 employes.
I'm having a nervous breakdown, I have taken over this QM position from a disgruntled old guy who left so much undone and neglected.
Oh and also I ws left with 3 Majors and 4 minors to respond to by next week and to fix by Mid November.
The noncons should not be a huge problem but this long winded redunant mess will be.

Also none of the (QP's) quality procedures are numbered to the new standard, or the WI's, and they are all done in some 1980 software that no one uses anymore.
Oh yeah and there are like 14 copys of the procedure and WI books floating around, and 7 copys of the Quality Manual (Bible).

Okay now here is the part where you all can help me :)
Anyone have any examples of compliant manuals that have NOT been written by Tolken??
Bacially he had his set up like evey ELEMENT (like 5.4.2, 5.5.1, 5.5.2) has it's own page, own title block and sign off area (with matching matrix in front of each Clause)

I would like to re-vamp this thing but it might be a little more than I can do right now having to fix these noncons up.

I need a prozac!


G.
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
#2
We have a manual that is likely bigger than that if you count QM and procedures. We also have over 900 people and are a fullly integrated steel mill. As far as needing an example, we just took the standard and put it into our own terms. If you read the standard it would read very closely to our QM. Our procedures break down more of who wil do what by when. Then there are the supporting work instructions that say how we will do it. Hope this helps.
 
J

Jimmy Olson

#3
Welcome to the cove :bigwave:

91 pages is defiantely way too long. There are several examples posted here that you can look over to get ideas.

Here is one thread that has discussions about the structure of the manual:
http://Elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=3734

If you do a search you can find examples posted in various threads (they're scattered around, otherwise I would post a link)
 
A

Aaron Lupo

#4
Our Quality Manual is now about 21 pages long, it used to be 7 pages until my boss got his hands on it! :bonk: 91 pages is a killer, is that just your QM or does it include your procedures as well?
 
B

Bob_M

#5
Your Quality Manual that is!
Anyway I just took a look at the manual I have inherited (2000 standard)
and it is a whopping 91 PAGES!!!!!
Is it just me or is this thing a little looong??
We are not that large of a company either, around 35 employes.
I'm having a nervous breakdown, I have taken over this QM position from a disgruntled old guy who left so much undone and neglected.
First: Take a breath or crackle your knuckles. :) I can semi-relate to being left with a F*#'ed system by the last QM.

The lenght does SOUND excessive. Does the manual include ALL of your procedures? If it does, you'll have to discuss with the appropriate people, if this is were you WANT the procedures published.
Also none of the (QP's) quality procedures are numbered to the new standard, or the WI's, and they are all done in some 1980 software that no one uses anymore.
Oh yeah and there are like 14 copys of the procedure and WI books floating around, and 7 copys of the Quality Manual (Bible).
STOP! The procedures and Work Instructions DO NOT need to be renumbered unless you want/need them to be for internal reasons. Don't give your self more work! The old software may be a problem as you need to update.
Are the copies of the books and manuals a problem? If not work on that later. If yes, figure out who really needs what, and create a simple distribution LOG so you that future retrevial of the books will be easier (not ISO required but a good/simple idea).
Okay now here is the part where you all can help me :)
Anyone have any examples of compliant manuals that have NOT been written by Tolken??
Bacially he had his set up like evey ELEMENT (like 5.4.2, 5.5.1, 5.5.2) has it's own page, own title block and sign off area (with matching matrix in front of each Clause)
A page for each clause is rediculous, UNLESS you have a narative for each section and how it applys to your company. Our 1994 based manual had a new page for each of the 20 element, but NOT one for each clause. Our new manual just keeps flowing (no page breaks).
I would like to re-vamp this thing but it might be a little more than I can do right now having to fix these noncons up.
What are the NonCons? Are any of the them related to the manual and/or its distribution? Fix the NonCons then the manual if not.
I need a prozac!
That's how I felt for about a year, and probably will again at some point!

----------
Our "new" manual has:
Cover Page, Table of Contents, brief company introduction, a section where management signed the manual, then I basically rewrote the entire ISO standard and inserted a few "company" specific details and reference to seperate procedures/documents, revision history, organization chart (1page), process map (1page), and a Procedure listing with an ISO 1994 and 2000 cross reference. TOTAL Pages = 19
(We have a seperated Printed binder for procedures that is only used by the auditor. Additional documented are distributed as needed one at time).

I did not have time to make a "user-friendly" or very customized manual, so I kept it simple. I do need to do some tweaking per our Pre-Asssessment audit, but overall it covers the ISO requirements for a manual. NOTE: Our manual structure is NOT what ISO requires, it was just the simplest/quickest way to update it for ME.

Try to keep it simple and fix one problem at a time. Then keep visiting this site for help and ideas!
 
R

Randy Stewart

#6
Currently ours is 18 pages, it was 97 for the QS model (rehash of the standard). The current "Operations Manual" is an integrated manual for ops (of course), 14001, 5S, TS, 9K2K, etc. It took awhile to map out the cross connects but once that was complete the rest seemed to fall into place.

My suggestion would be to leave the manual alone for now (you're probably the only one whose looked at it since Gandolph) so focus on your system. Work the bugs out of process, procedures, etc. then concern yourself with that manual. IMO, if US Steel can get away with a 15 pager no one should have more than 30 pages!
 
#8
What is Marc's famous quote

"One size does not fit all"

So I can defintely say that if a small QM works for you that is great and more manageable. However some combine QM and PM into one and for many that do it this way I don't think you can say how many pages it should or should not be. General rule of thumb is that the QM says why yuo are going to do something and closely mimics the standard. The PM is where more details tend to go. If you separate these then it is easier to keep small but easier to forget to update the other manual. Pluses and minuses to each but you must do what will work for you. Never use one of those PJ template QM. That is just a great sales tool for PJ to sucker in those who are uninformed.
 
#9
Wider is better?

Richard gave you a good link on QMs. Here is another:
TS 16949 Quality Manual
I have a 20 page manual that is a complete restatement of the standard, with co. specific quality policy and objectives and reference to all of my Quality Assurance Procedures. I suspect that your 90 page manual includes your Level II QAPs ("how-to's") instead of just the "we shall's". My previous company (2 sites, 250 people) registered to 9k94 with a 56 page manual (that includes cover sheets, signoff page, table of contents, revision levels page, cross reference to other standards page, and a signed off title block 2" high on EVERY page.) I like Bob's answer:
Cover Page, Table of Contents, brief company introduction, a section where management signed the manual, then I basically rewrote the entire ISO standard and inserted a few "company" specific details and reference to seperate procedures/documents, revision history, organization chart (1page), process map (1page), and a Procedure listing with an ISO 1994 and 2000 cross reference. TOTAL Pages = 19
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration
Staff member
Admin
#10
I have several clients which I worked with back in the mid- to late- 1990's which registered to the 1994 standard. When they upgraded, they did a few changes to their manuals but kept everything in the 'old' 20 elements format and provide a cross-reference to the paragraphs in the new standard.

The upgrades were quick and thus I didn't make much $, but they liked it.

Often I think folks tend to go way too far in what they do when they 'upgrade' to the 2000 release. I'm talking 9001, not 16949, however, which is a whole different animal.
 
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