How can an employee know that he is using the most current version of documentation?

  • Thread starter zkshazly - 2010
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Wanderer1234uk

#21
Re: How can an employee know that he is using the most current version of documentati

Let's look at this situation from a cost point of view. Let's say in our company we have a thousand documents and 50 employees. And let's say the company has created this policy which states that before any employee uses a document they should check with the online Master List to ensure that they are using the most "Current" copy.

Let's say the 1,000 documents are accessed on the average of 12 times a month. So that's 12,000 events or interaction between employee and documents. And let's multiply that by 12 months for a grand total of 144,000 events for a one year period. Now let's say Document Control has created a Master List and the average time it takes for any employee to look up a document is 5 minutes. If we multiply the number of events 144,000 by 5 minutes that would work out to 720,000 minutes or 12,000 hours. Depending on how your company costs out hours at, this would be your cost to meet compliance. You can see I've used some relatively low numbers to illustrate this examples. Some interactions could easily reach a few million to billions, depending on the company. What looks like a simple act could easily become a monster.

So some of the questions would be: With 144,000 events, how would you ensure that all 144,000 events will take place? What would the cost be to the company if the wrong document was used? How many nonconformances will be issued? Correction Actions and so on. How much down time would there be when an employee finds out they don't have the most current copy? With 144,000 events, what do you think are the chances that an auditor will find a mismatch, which would result in an observation?

Other questions will arise: how do you ensure that the Master List is current? If you maintain everything in a database, who would be responsible for the integrity of a database? All it takes is a few errors in a database and the database becomes worthless. Imagine finding out that there are errors in your database, who can afford the time to go through each and every document and compare it to the database to ensure that there is a 100% match? And how many times will you have to review and check the database before that happens? I can just see it now, if someone in your company points out to your boss that there are errors in the database, guess who will have to go through the database to ensure that the database is 100% accurate?

Other questions include, how do you handle Change Control? Obsoletion of documents? Just sit down and start analyzing the possible interaction between employee and documents and you will start to get a good picture of how serious of a problem it can be or how it will impact the products or services you provide your customers. Aside from that, you will get a pretty good perspective of how Document Control works in your company.

The purpose of Document Control is to create a system that will ensure that only current version of a document should be used. If you left this up to all your employees the company would fail miserably. Document Control in this scenario is shifting their responsibility to the many employees and guess whose job is on the line when wrong documents are being used throughout the document?

You should concentrate on how you control documents in the company. You should define what is a controlled document is for your company. What is the difference between "Controlled" documents and "Uncontrolled" Documents. If you as Document Control, controls how the documents are issued then you are a lot closer to meeting this compliance. That is, Document Control must control who has access to what documents for the company. You also need to analyze how you handle Change Control and Obsoletion of a document. Start by drawing a process map of the life cycle of your documents so you can understand the whole picture. The question always in the back of the mind is what is the real impact if an employee uses the wrong document. Document Control is one of the hardest elements to maintain 100% compliance. Is there such a thing as a bullet-proof Document Control System?
 
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Randy

Super Moderator
#22
Re: How can an employee know that he is using the most current version of documentati

Ya know, I worked on a 6-month consulting contract with a Northrop-Grumman facility and was granted access to well over 11,000 documents needing my review and there was never a question with any of them being the correct revision. Why do you ask? Because document control was electronic and only the current revision was accessable to me or any other employee.

An organization that keeps paper stuff and at least one human being on staff must expect that control can and will be lost.

That stupid "Master List" mentioned guarantees nothing. Nada, nichts, zero, zilch, NOTHING! Why? Because a person has to keep "it" current Homer!

Ya wanna know what a "Master Document Control List" means to me when I do an audit? AUDIT TRAIL!
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#23
Re: How can an employee know that he is using the most current version of documentati

An organization that keeps paper stuff and at least one human being on staff must expect that control can and will be lost.

That stupid "Master List" mentioned guarantees nothing. Nada, nichts, zero, zilch, NOTHING! Why? Because a person has to keep "it" current Homer!
You seem to think that in electronic document systems the documents are produced and loaded into the system by magic.
 
#24
Re: How can an employee know that he is using the most current version of documentati

An organization that keeps paper stuff and at least one human being on staff must expect that control can and will be lost.

That stupid "Master List" mentioned guarantees nothing. Nada, nichts, zero, zilch, NOTHING! Why? Because a person has to keep "it" current Homer!

Ya wanna know what a "Master Document Control List" means to me when I do an audit? AUDIT TRAIL!
Woa! there Randy - a good document control system with an effective process owner can and does maintain control. Often this is the basis of engineering document controls. I advocate it in many clients who don't have an extensive computer network and the system works very well, thanks.

True a master list doesn't guarantee anything, but to say it means nothing is an over reaction IMHO, especially for those Covers who also don't have the availability of an extensive network/control software.

And, BTW - of course there's an audit trail - it's part of a system, silly!:lol:
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#25
Re: How can an employee know that he is using the most current version of documentati

Friends,

I consider documentation an input to the process. Similar to tools, materials, measuring tools, etc. I do not believe that it is too much to ask an employee to quickly verify that the correct stuff is provided before starting an operation. In fact, when I worked in manufacturing, it was required that you check the print, router and set-up sheets to make sure that the numbers and revisions matched. Took me 30 seconds. No big deal.

Stijloor.
 
#26
Re: How can an employee know that he is using the most current version of documentati

Friends,

I consider documentation an input to the process.

Stijloor.
Surely, if you take the classic definition of a process - the transformation of inputs to outputs, documentation isn't an input! It's not transformed (unless it's the specific job of the process) but a control of the process. There may be some data required to be recorded, it's true, but procedures, work instructions as an input?

It's true some management want people to check on revisions before they start a job, but that's because they didn't trust the document control process and they were using (you) like an inspector at the end of the process to correct another's process! So, it only took 30s, but how many times was it wrong (across the business) and how long did it take to hunt down the correct version(s) for everyone - over the course of a year???

Like I said, not in my business! I'd want to know who was making folks check others work. It's not value-added and is the kind of thing that is an insidious waste which should be removed.
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#27
Re: How can an employee know that he is using the most current version of documentati

Surely, if you take the classic definition of a process - the transformation of inputs to outputs, documentation isn't an input! It's not transformed (unless it's the specific job of the process) but a control of the process. There may be some data required to be recorded, it's true, but procedures, work instructions as an input?

It's true some management want people to check on revisions before they start a job, but that's because they didn't trust the document control process and they were using (you) like an inspector at the end of the process to correct another's process! So, it only took 30s, but how many times was it wrong (across the business) and how long did it take to hunt down the correct version(s) for everyone - over the course of a year???

Like I said, not in my business! I'd want to know who was making folks check others work. It's not value-added and is the kind of thing that is an insidious waste which should be removed.
I do not want to get into an argument of how is process is defined and certainly not about associated semantics. OK, it took me 30 seconds or less to verify my paperwork and I rarely found any problems. This was many years ago, using a manual system. I would expect that a computer-based system will work even better. Let's be realistic here.

Stijloor.
 
#28
Re: How can an employee know that he is using the most current version of documentati

I agree with Randy. In todays world we should be using electronic media to document revisions. The latest revision being ii the system. I also agree that a master list serves no purpose other than an audit trail.
If it is absolutley imperitive, and it gives you that warm fuzzy, that an operator must know that he is using the correct revision, a statement can be added as a footnote to the document.
Responsibility for the control of documents is a management responsibility, not an operator responsibility.
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#29
Re: How can an employee know that he is using the most current version of documentati

Responsibility for the control of documents is a management responsibility, not an operator responsibility.
I did not say that document control is an operator responsibility.
There's nothing wrong with performing a quick check to verify that the correct revisions have been issued.

Stijloor.
 
Last edited:
#30
Re: How can an employee know that he is using the most current version of documentati

I did not say that document control is an operator responsibility.
There's nothing wrong with performing a quick check to verify that the correct revisions have been issued.

Stijloor.
There's a subtle but valuable point that's missing here. No-one said checking was 'wrong', but to have a new or inexperienced Cover read this thread, getting the idea that it's required and install a system whereby operators must check for the latest document revisions is not going to garner any support from management, nor do us any favors here.

The description of a quick check/verification was to ensure that all the documents had the same revision, (not what was the correct one), which is different and we (in the consulting business) should be very clear about that! Correct documentation means going back to the issuing authority and finding out what was intended to be used. If you had all documents with different revisions, what would you conclude? Use the most recent revision level? - dangerous, IMHO!
 
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