How can an Internal Auditor Trainer's Competency be Evaluated - IATF 16949 Cl. 7.2.3

[Quality Auditor]

It was stated that where internal auditor training is provided to achieve competency, documented information shall be retained to demonstrate the trainer's competency with above requirement.

Does anyone know how trainer's competency can be evaluated?

 

[qusys]

Re: How can an Internal Auditor Trainer's Competency be Evaluated - IATF 16949 Cl. 7.

You shall put in place a documented process for this purpose, "documented" in the sense that it is managed with PDCA approach. Guidelines helpful is also ISO 19011. Requirements explicated in points from a to e in clause 7.2.3 are clear.
For maintaining competences refers to point g and h.
You can decide to certify a master internal auditor that could have the function to train other people, also with on the job training.
This master can attend external course recognized for internal auditor held by IAFT bodies in each nation.
In this sense it is also important the experience of the trainer as internal auditor that can be proved with many ways such as certificates in core tools, previous audit report, certificates in knowledge of IATF 19949 and ISO 9001 etc...

 

[SteelMan12]

Re: How can an Internal Auditor Trainer's Competency be Evaluated - IATF 16949 Cl. 7.

I struggled greatly with this for years. Not only how to assess yourself as a trainer but how to show that auditors have all the necessary qualifications. 19011 is your best guidance document for this. Toward the end it offers plenty of examples on how to assess. That being said I know it's still difficult to fully understand how to do without an example. Every auditor undergoes this assessment including myself however i use two auditors to assess me to make it fair. I am including an assessment form i developed. Please use and adjust to your needs. I hope that this helps. It could also be used to determine competency company wide. I am including both my assessment tool and the competency document.

Good Luck

 

[Marc]

Re: How can an Internal Auditor Trainer's Competency be Evaluated - IATF 16949 Cl. 7.

Good post. Thanks!

 

[SteelMan12]

Re: How can an Internal Auditor Trainer's Competency be Evaluated - IATF 16949 Cl. 7.

Thank you. I just wanted to say that this site has been so instrumental in the transition from ISO 9001:2008 to 2015/ISO 14001:2004 to 2015. It has been so frustrating that our auditor is limited on what help they can give and no one wants to give suggestions. I will definitely be more active in this community in order to reciprocate the help that i have been given.

 

[rjmsteel]

Re: How can an Internal Auditor Trainer's Competency be Evaluated - IATF 16949 Cl. 7.

I struggled greatly with this for years. Not only how to assess yourself as a trainer but how to show that auditors have all the necessary qualifications. 19011 is your best guidance document for this. Toward the end it offers plenty of examples on how to assess. That being said I know it's still difficult to fully understand how to do without an example. Every auditor undergoes this assessment including myself however i use two auditors to assess me to make it fair. I am including an assessment form i developed. Please use and adjust to your needs. I hope that this helps. It could also be used to determine competency company wide. I am including both my assessment tool and the competency document.

Good Luck

Thanks Steelman!

Your Qualification assessment workbook and specifically the Gap Analysis tab/chart could additionally be very useful in Knowledge Auditing for Operators, Setup Specialists, Helpers/Inspectors, Order Builders and various Processing skill sets.

I have been using various Knowledge Audit (KPACT) Mastery assessments, (see attachment), at our plants successfully to determine competency. With ISO 9001: 2015 an additional layer of Risk Identification will be added or just described in the notes areas.

 

[Bigrhinomike]

Re: How can an Internal Auditor Trainer's Competency be Evaluated - IATF 16949 Cl. 7.

Also, ISO 19011 provides guidance for competence and evaluation of auditors in section 7.



.

 

[AndyN]

Re: How can an Internal Auditor Trainer's Competency be Evaluated - IATF 16949 Cl. 7.

Also, ISO 19011 provides guidance for competence and evaluation of auditors in section 7.



.

Welcome!

Good point, however, being a competent instructor doesn't come from being a competent auditor. Over many years, I met people who came to Lead Auditor course and proudly proclaimed they were going to train their internal auditors! Good luck with THAT!

 

[HoussamBEY]

Hello Dears,

1. The IATF specifies that "The organization shall have a documented process(es) to verify that internal auditors are competent". So this is clear. The absence of a documented process leads to raising a non conformity.
2. In general, what's being used to meet this requirement, is to plan 2 days training by external company for IATF requirements. Most often, we present a simple certificate to the auditor as evidence. But, no auditor asked for a process of evaluation. We all know that a simple certificate of assistance to this kind of trainings is not an evaluation. I never had a non conformity for that.

My questions:
1. why a simple certificate of assistance is enough if the requirement is to have a documented process for evaluating the competency ?
2. is it valid, to ask this external company to establish a quiz at the end of the training, and then we can say that we meet the requirement ? No obligation in the IATF that oblige us to have this evaluation internally.
3. can an internal QMS auditor train other internal auditors? taking into consideration that he has only a simple attendence certificate to IATF requirements course ?

Kind regards

 

[Jim Wynne]

My questions:
1. why a simple certificate of assistance is enough if the requirement is to have a documented process for evaluating the competency ?

We can't account for what an auditor accepts or doesn't. The fact that you haven't been called out for the lack of a documented process at this point doesn't mean you never will be called out. You know the requirement, so it should have been in place at the time of the registration audit.

2. is it valid, to ask this external company to establish a quiz at the end of the training, and then we can say that we meet the requirement ? No obligation in the IATF that oblige us to have this evaluation internally.

Training and quizzes might be part of competence evaluation, but not the only part. Many people who are trained and have evinced evidence of knowledge of the requirements will crash and burn when it comes to actually doing audits.

3. can an internal QMS auditor train other internal auditors? taking into consideration that he has only a simple attendence certificate to IATF requirements course ?

The short answer is "yes," but we come back to the question of competence. It goes one level deeper now though, in that the trainer should be a competent auditor and competent trainer.