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How Can We Show Control Over Outsourced Processes?

Q

qualitymanager

#11
It may not be to a formal "spec", but there is some need/requirement which has to be met (or else, why bother with the plating and/or painting?). This is what has to be "adequate" before communication to the supplier, if you are using clause 7.4 to control these outsourced processes.

How do you know if the supplier meets the "decorative" requirements?

Perhaps a visual inspection (and associated records) could suffice for meeting 7.4.3 and 8.2.4.
 
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Wes Bucey

Prophet of Profit
#12
FWIW:
Whenever I outsourced metal finishing (plating, electropolishing, chemical coatings,etc.), I made it a point to collaborate with the supplier, explaining EXACTLY the functions and expectations of the finish and deciding together what criteria we would set to determine the finish met our requirements.

I just never thought of the relationship between us and our suppliers as anything other than a partnership with as much disclosure as possible on both sides of the deal.

Perhaps it's a strategy you could try.
 
A

amanbhai

#13
This a very common problem and I feel there is a misperception about outsourced process.
I request for more feedbacks. :thanks:
 
T

Ted Schmitt

#14
Just recently transferring from TUV to SGS, I´ll pass on SGS´s definition of an outsourced process : An outsourced process is one that even if the organization has the condition/capacity to do internally, the organization decides to do it outside of the organization.

We outsource our calibration, but I do not consider it an outsourced process since I do not have the required conditions to perform the calibrations. But, I do qualify this supplier in accordance 7.4.1 par 2
 

Wes Bucey

Prophet of Profit
#15
Just recently transferring from TUV to SGS, I´ll pass on SGS´s definition of an outsourced process : An outsourced process is one that even if the organization has the condition/capacity to do internally, the organization decides to do it outside of the organization.

We outsource our calibration, but I do not consider it an outsourced process since I do not have the required conditions to perform the calibrations. But, I do qualify this supplier in accordance 7.4.1 par 2
GOSH, THAT'S AN INTERESTING DISTINCTION.

The distinction I used (really splitting hairs, because they are ALL suppliers of one kind or another) was folks performing "additional" processes to a product my shop had already done preliminary work on or on ANY product or material we supplied.

Thus, any finish applied to products we machined (plating, chemical coating, electropolishing, etc.) by a supplier in an arm's length transaction was "outsourcing." Alternately, if I OWNED the supplier, regardless if it was in my building or across the state, we considered it just another step in our own manufacturing process, the same as if I moved the product from machine to machine or dunked it in a passivating tank in the far corner of the shop.

Conversely, if I made a bargain deal on 24-foot metal bars from supplier A and had them shipped to steel service center B to cut into 12-foot lengths so they would fit in my automatic barloaders, I considered that normal supply chain, not outsourcing, even though I had the capacity in-house to chop the bars, but chose to use my resources for a higher profit purpose, more than covering the cost of having a supplier cut them for us. The distinction in my mind being we hadn't done any preliminary work on the bars apart from paying for them.
 
Q

qualitymanager

#16
Just recently transferring from TUV to SGS, I´ll pass on SGS´s definition of an outsourced process : An outsourced process is one that even if the organization has the condition/capacity to do internally, the organization decides to do it outside of the organization.

We outsource our calibration, but I do not consider it an outsourced process since I do not have the required conditions to perform the calibrations. But, I do qualify this supplier in accordance 7.4.1 par 2
ISO 9001 clause 4.2.1 Note 2 does not mention "conditions". SGS has to audit to ISO 9001 - if company has the "conditions/capacity" to carry out the process(es) is not, IMO, the pass/fail mark for deciding if it/they are outsourced.
 

Crusader

Trusted Information Resource
#17
FWIW:
Whenever I outsourced metal finishing (plating, electropolishing, chemical coatings,etc.), I made it a point to collaborate with the supplier, explaining EXACTLY the functions and expectations of the finish and deciding together what criteria we would set to determine the finish met our requirements.

I just never thought of the relationship between us and our suppliers as anything other than a partnership with as much disclosure as possible on both sides of the deal.

Perhaps it's a strategy you could try.
THAT is exactly what we do and have done for years but that isn't enough correct? It has to be defined on the PO or somewhere else, correct? Obviously, we don't document it. I know the supplier does though.
 
Last edited:

Wes Bucey

Prophet of Profit
#18
THAT is exactly what we do and have done for years but that isn't enough correct? It has to be defined on the PO or somewhere else, correct? Obviously, we don't document it. I know the supplier does though.
After we conferred/collaborated, we reduced it to writing (the Control Plan and the Inspection Plan), then afterward there is no "he said/she said" argument. Sometimes we generated "gold samples" when an appearance attribute was agreed, each party having pass/fail samples for visual comparison.

Obviously [perhaps not so obviously?], we also involved OUR customer in this dialog. (We sold to OEM.)

Back then, I thought it was a great way to

  1. avoid arguments AFTER the fact
  2. reduce cost (the outsourced process was not "over-engineered" to satisfy the whim of some persnickety inspector with an ingrown hair)
  3. get the supplier actively involved in the success of my product
  4. learn potential cost savings or product improvements (I first learned about electroless nickel from one such plating source and subsequently lobbied all my customers who specified such plating to switch from electrolytic nickel plate and to change from toxic cadmium plating to this process which made machinists all look good because of the uniform thickness coating - no "dogboning" on edges and points of machined products.)
 
R

red08

#19
We are currently an ISO-9001 Certified Design and Manufacturing supplier of integrated assembly and welding systems for the automotive and general industrial industries. I have prepared our QMS and documentation for an upcoming AS9100 audit scheduled for April. The executive management has recently made the decision to outsource all of our Mechanical and Controls Engineering. The people who recently worked for the engineering departments are still here, however do not work directly for our company any longer.
So, here's my dilemma:
How do I address this with my new AS9100 auditor?
Currently they are still under our roof, working to our Design and Development Procedures and requirements, so do I treat them as though they are still internal departments?
Am I now exposed to a non-conformance, if it becomes known and I don't have them included within my approved supplier system?
How should I develop the system for this in the future?
We use suppliers of course for purchased components, temp. contractors and special process manufacturing, however, this is different for us, since it's so close to our audit, we are little nervous as to how to handle the situation.
 

Wes Bucey

Prophet of Profit
#20
We are currently an ISO-9001 Certified Design and Manufacturing supplier of integrated assembly and welding systems for the automotive and general industrial industries. I have prepared our QMS and documentation for an upcoming AS9100 audit scheduled for April. The executive management has recently made the decision to outsource all of our Mechanical and Controls Engineering. The people who recently worked for the engineering departments are still here, however do not work directly for our company any longer.
So, here's my dilemma:
How do I address this with my new AS9100 auditor?
Currently they are still under our roof, working to our Design and Development Procedures and requirements, so do I treat them as though they are still internal departments?
Am I now exposed to a non-conformance, if it becomes known and I don't have them included within my approved supplier system?
How should I develop the system for this in the future?
We use suppliers of course for purchased components, temp. contractors and special process manufacturing, however, this is different for us, since it's so close to our audit, we are little nervous as to how to handle the situation.
Curiously, we have several threads revolving around the issue of "employee status" vis a vis ISO auditor opinion this week.

In general, my take on this is: "on-site workers, regardless of who actually signs a paycheck, are engaged in a task for the organization, and thus under the "control" of the organization."

Usually, it's pretty easy to differentiate a supplier who performs work off-premises from an external worker (salesman, field engineer, SQA), regardless if the off-premises worker is on a direct payroll for the organization or works for a "temp agency."

Similarly, it seems to me easy to differentiate between a roofing installer, a process machine repairman, a plumber, etc. and a flock of inspectors hired from a temp agency or a room full of CAD people making working engineering drawings from sketches drawn up by in-house engineers. The outside contractors/suppliers are providing a product or service based on THEIR skill and experience and the organization has little control over HOW the task is performed even if the WHEN and WHERE of access is limited.

Conversely, the draftsmen, inspectors, engineers, assemblers, and others hired from a temp agency are specifically bound by the temporary contract to be under the control of the organization for the HOW as well as the WHEN and WHERE. Each individual worker, of course, regardless of whether an outside supplier or a captive temporary worker, brings certain skills and experience to the job which allows him some latitude in how easily or efficiently he performs the task at hand. Your organization is spared the expense of training/retraining a whole crop of new temp employees. (That's why the organization agreed to keep the same workers rather than insisting on a new crop from the temp agency.)

In the specific case, the fact the paycheck signer has changed, but the workers are the same, is merely an accounting detail, NOT an indicator of loss of function or control over their activities.

Think of this whole apparent change as something as trivial as changing bank accounts for the payroll and designating a new organization person as the check signer. From your description, nothing more has changed, nor should anything change in the way you interact on a day-to-day basis with these workers.

BOTTOM LINE:
you still have the same control you had when they were direct employees.
 
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